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KeithOoloo

Thompson sub-machine guns

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KeithOoloo

I've never really had machine guns used much in my campaign, but with the arrival of a private investigator with a slightly dodgy past, we have a Thompson submachine gun user (1 30 bullet drum).

 

My question is can the investigator empty 30 bullets in the one round? I opted for yes in the absence of any rule I could find, making pretty short work of an unsuspecting Byhakee - but just wondered what others out there thought/knew

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ChristianII

If i recall correctly, the d20 book has rules for shooting from the hip, or pumping clips into something. If i remember right it means that you /can/ do it, but with extremely poor accuracy and increased risk of jamming the gun.

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oldtimer

There is a true story about an assassination attempt i can't remember the intended targets name but afterwards he was known as "lucky".

The assassin opened up with a tommy gun and emptied the entire drum magazine and missed with every shot because tommy guns didn't have flash suppressors to reduce muzzle climb.

So yes i would let him fire all 30 shots but i would reduce his percentage to hit with every 3 rounds he fires, and/or increase the chance of malfunction.

If he was firing from the shoulder and he had military training you might let him do it without penalty. but even trained personnel would really try and fire all 30 rounds in one go.

 

or give the beastie more hit points :)

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Beyond00
I've never really had machine guns used much in my campaign, but with the arrival of a private investigator with a slightly dodgy past, we have a Thompson submachine gun user (1 30 bullet drum).

 

My question is can the investigator empty 30 bullets in the one round? I opted for yes in the absence of any rule I could find, making pretty short work of an unsuspecting Byhakee - but just wondered what others out there thought/knew

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_submachine_gun

 

With a 600-800 cyc rate, I'd say yes unless your combat rounds are very short indeed.

 

Yes, the gun barrel does climb. I've never liked the +5% per bullet more to hit rule. I've changed it to a straight +20% to hit if they toss 30 rounds toward a critter - to a limited extent on something not belt fed you can 'walk the fire' to the target.

 

I'd suggest making friends with someone who has a class 3 collectors license (allowing ownership of full auto weapons) and going shooting with them sometime - make your own determinations.

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KeithOoloo

Thanks All!

 

I like the increased malfunction idea.

 

I'd suggest making friends with someone who has a class 3 collectors license (allowing ownership of full auto weapons) and going shooting with them sometime - make your own determinations.

 

Now that would be interesting, but unlikely to be feasible in little old London Town.

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jathromir

The d20 Modern SRD has this rule found here under the Combat Section.

 

Autofire

If a ranged weapon has an automatic rate of fire, a character may set it on autofire. Autofire affects an area and everyone in it, not a specific creature. The character targets a 10-foot-by-10-foot area and makes an attack roll; the targeted area has an effective Defense of 10. (If the character does not have the Advanced Firearms Proficiency feat, he or she takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll.) If the attack succeeds, every creature within the affected area must make a Reflex save (DC 15) or take the weapon’s damage. Autofire shoots 10 bullets, and can only be used if the weapon has 10 bullets in it.

Autofire is not the same thing as burst fire, which involves firing a short burst at a specific target. Firing a burst requires the Burst Fire feat. If a character fires a blast of automatic fire at a specific target without the Burst Fire feat, it’s treated as a standard attack. The attack, if successful, only deals normal damageâ€â€all the extra ammunition the character fired is wasted.

Some firearmsâ€â€particularly machine gunsâ€â€only have autofire settings and can’t normally fire single shots.

 

CoC d20 has a similar rule about emptying a gun, but I rather like this rule. Gives ya that "spraying and area and waisting bullets" feel.

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Dagon-Industries-Inc
didn't have flash suppressors to reduce muzzle climb.

 

Actually flash suppressors do just that they suppress muzzle flash to help conceal a shooters location especially in low light situations. What you are looking for is a muzzle brake or also known as a recoil compensator. It redirects the gases coming out of the end of the barrel of the gun to counter the barrel rise caused by recoil.

 

I have one on my .45 and it does noticeably reduce the amount of recoil. Don’t get me wrong it still has fair amount of kick it is a .45 after all but less then .45’s I’ve fired without one.

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Dagon-Industries-Inc
I'd suggest making friends with someone who has a class 3 collectors license (allowing ownership of full auto weapons) and going shooting with them sometime - make your own determinations.

 

Funny thing I was talking to my cousin who is an ATF agent not to long ago about this very thing. It’s actually a class 3 weapons license and it allows you to sell automatic weapons and the like. Anyone who can legally own firearms can go to a gun show, gun store etc and purchase automatic weapons, silencers etc for a mere $200 tax. Basically you go to the show pick your item fill out a form and pay the $200 tax. Now they know who’s got what, well at least the honest citizens. I don’t recall what the tax is called but it was put in place in the 20’s or 30’s as a way to register these types of weapons by calling it a tax. I’m sure I’ve over simplified the process but it’s really not much more then that.

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oldtimer

Actually flash suppressors do just that they suppress muzzle flash to help conceal a shooters location especially in low light situations. What you are looking for is a muzzle brake or also known as a recoil compensator.

 

Thanks to Father_Dagon for pointing out my mistake. After carrying a machine gun around the desert i really should know what all the parts are called :oops:

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AmesJainchill
Funny thing I was talking to my cousin who is an ATF agent not to long ago about this very thing. It’s actually a class 3 weapons license and it allows you to sell automatic weapons and the like. Anyone who can legally own firearms can go to a gun show, gun store etc and purchase automatic weapons, silencers etc for a mere $200 tax. Basically you go to the show pick your item fill out a form and pay the $200 tax. Now they know who’s got what, well at least the honest citizens. I don’t recall what the tax is called but it was put in place in the 20’s or 30’s as a way to register these types of weapons by calling it a tax. I’m sure I’ve over simplified the process but it’s really not much more then that.

 

You're talking about the 1934 National Firearms Act. It's not a license, you can get a license but that's if you buy and sell guns for a living.

 

In order to simply buy a silencer or machine gun or short-barreled weapon as an ordinary citizen you simply need to fill out some paperwork with your fingerprints and some other info, get a signature from your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer (sherriff, police chief, local judge, etc.) and wait 6 months to a year to get the go-ahead for buying your first NFA item. Later items are about a 1 month turnaround.

 

Also, Thompsons are big heavy draters, so recoil isn't too bad if you have some fire discipline and don't try and strangle the gun in your hands--let the recoil keep the gun to your shoulder.

 

Also, if the character goes through 150-200 rounds in the space of a few minutes, and gets the barrel and whatnot all heated up, I could see a case for higher malfunction rate. But if the gun is cold I wouldn't think so.

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KeithOoloo
Also, if the character goes through 150-200 rounds in the space of a few minutes, and gets the barrel and whatnot all heated up, I could see a case for higher malfunction rate. But if the gun is cold I wouldn't think so.

 

So would you say, rules-wise, that just as you can fire say an 8, or 10 round burst, you should be able to fire a 30 round burst in the same way - the only disadvantage being you use the whole drum up.

 

And if its a 50 round drum the same etc?

 

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AmesJainchill
So would you say, rules-wise, that just as you can fire say an 8, or 10 round burst, you should be able to fire a 30 round burst in the same way - the only disadvantage being you use the whole drum up.

 

And if its a 50 round drum the same etc?

 

You'd use all of the 30 round stick magazine--or all of the 50 round drum.

 

The drums look like a good idea, but a member on here who knows something about guns mentioned that they can jam up in a certain fashion and are almost impossible to unjam without three hands.

 

And yeah, you use up the whole magazine. Which means it'll take you about three seconds to replace it. If the typical CoC group of investigators is a couple guys with long guns (or Thompsons) and the rest with handguns, you'll wish you had more fire discipline.

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KeithOoloo

A follow up question on the Thompson machine guns. The Rulebook doesn't give the cost for these, I assume becuase they're not on general sale/are military weapons. But how much would they cost in the 1920s - whether legitimately, or on the black market? Anyone know? Thanks.

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WinstonP
A follow up question on the Thompson machine guns. The Rulebook doesn't give the cost for these, I assume becuase they're not on general sale/are military weapons. But how much would they cost in the 1920s - whether legitimately, or on the black market? Anyone know? Thanks.

 

This site (check in the "First Production" section) suggests they cost $225 upon release.

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Karloff
I assume becuase they're not on general sale/are military weapons.

 

Nah, anyone could buy'em. I think they even went on mail order at one point. The bigger problem was, nobody wanted to buy them.

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jeffszusz
I assume becuase they're not on general sale/are military weapons.

 

Nah, anyone could buy'em. I think they even went on mail order at one point. The bigger problem was, nobody wanted to buy them.

 

Yeah, they materialized just after a war was over and nobody was looking for weapons like that. The only people truly interested were newly budding organized crime groups.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, and the police once mobsters had been using them for long enough.

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Lynx

 

Funny thing I was talking to my cousin who is an ATF agent not to long ago about this very thing. It’s actually a class 3 weapons license and it allows you to sell automatic weapons and the like. Anyone who can legally own firearms can go to a gun show, gun store etc and purchase automatic weapons, silencers etc for a mere $200 tax. Basically you go to the show pick your item fill out a form and pay the $200 tax. Now they know who’s got what, well at least the honest citizens. I don’t recall what the tax is called but it was put in place in the 20’s or 30’s as a way to register these types of weapons by calling it a tax. I’m sure I’ve over simplified the process but it’s really not much more then that.

 

Really? I thought you needed a federal firearms license to own anything fully automatic. Especially with the whole Patriot act in effect.

 

I've wanted a civvy version of the G36, but if I can own a full model... :)

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Karloff

Mind you, going back to the cost question, Thompsons without serial numbers - ie. modded to be 'untraceable', at least by the standards of the day - would cost a lot more. I think the price tag on those was closer to $1000 . . .

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gloomhound
I assume becuase they're not on general sale/are military weapons.

 

Nah, anyone could buy'em. I think they even went on mail order at one point. The bigger problem was, nobody wanted to buy them.

cowboy.gif

 

Ad does seem kind of hard on the horses.

 

 

http://www.nfatoys.com/tsmg/web/coltguns.htm

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FunGuyfromYuggoth

You gotta love the fact he's wearing fuzzy chaps! Next stop, the disco! :lol:

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ElijahWhateley

The drums look like a good idea, but a member on here who knows something about guns mentioned that they can jam up in a certain fashion and are almost impossible to unjam without three hands.

 

That need not be a problem for every character in CoC...

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ChalkLine

Early model Thompsons (those with the H piece) and Browning Automatic Rifles (also for sale at this time) were fairly delicate and known to jam. Automatic fire was fairly new and such refinements as positive feed and robust magazines weren't really addressed until world war two.

 

Generally it is possible to empty a magazine of any automatic weapon inside of five seconds (assuming a 50 round drum maximum). Just as generally it is impossible to hit anything with more than the first ten rounds, the 'hosing' seen in movies are usually blanks with far less recoil. The .45 round the Thompson fired is an impressive beastie with a high impulse and slow projectile, both leading to a lot of recoil. Soldiers currently limit bursts to about ten rounds, and many weapons limit the burst to three rounds. I'd seriously rule that unless it's the size of a shantak or an automobile, ten rounds is an amazing amount to get on target.

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HANS
You'd use all of the 30 round stick magazine--or all of the 50 round drum.

 

The 30-round magazine (despite featuring prominently in Glancy's short story "Once More, From the Top" about the Marines in Innsmouth) was not available in the 1920s -- or even the 1930s. It was adopted in late 1941 and not available for service until 1942. The 50-round drum was not too bad, malfunction-wise; but the 100-round drum was pretty terrible; a number of embarrising jams are on record, including the 1926 shooting of "Hymie" Weiss, when the gun jammed after 39 shots . . . Many knowledgeable people at the time, including most of the 1930s gangsters like Dillinger, Nelson, et al, preferred the 20-round box. It was cheaper, lighter, less troublesome, and small enough so that a couple could be carried in the pockets of your jacket (with the gun concealed under it, stock removed).

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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HANS
The .45 round the Thompson fired is an impressive beastie with a high impulse and slow projectile, both leading to a lot of recoil.

 

I've fired a Thompson with Cutts compensator (basically equivalent to the Model 1921AC) on semiautomatic (full-auto being forbidden over here), and I found it to have very mild recoil (the thing is extremely heavy). Properly tucked into your shoulder or against your ribs, with a firm hold on both grips, I have now doubt that accurate fire on automatic is possible even with longish bursts.

 

Cheers

 

HANS

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YunusWesley
(on the 20, 30, 50, and 100 round clips)

 

Thanks Hans. I quite enjoy the GURPS Pulp Guns book BTW.

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