CoC d20's problems, and my solutions

[Tzepish]

I considered the check system, but there are a number of problems I'd like to avoid. First, I want to avoid characters using skills only to get the checks. Second, certain skills would get checks much more frequently (spot, listen, sense motive... as opposed to swim, tumble, and demolitions). Third, I want avoid characters using their "down time" to "practice" their skills ("I'm sure sometime during that last week of downtime I climbed a bunch of trees).

As for the discussion on skills and experts, I agree completely with what was said above. If you want to be an expert, take Skill Emphasis. That's what feats are for. Most of my players do take the skill feats over combat & DnD feats.

[Gomez]

Some of you probably recognize me from the old WotC Cthulhu board. You probably remember my house rules, too. I figured I'd share with those who don't know my house rules, because:

A.) Those who have the same problems with the CoC d20 rules as written may like what I've done.
B.) We may discuss them, if you're up for it, because there are probably better solutions out there. Perhaps my rules will improve, as well.

I like the basic d20 mechanic. I like the skills and feats and such. I just like how the rules work. What I have problems with are some of the rules in the book that aren't necessarily part of the d20 system itself, but rather, DnD.

On Levels: I realize the loads of HP are justified by the low massive damage threshold, but I still have problems with the idea of the characters "getting better". So, I wanted to play d20 (a system my players and I are already tremendously familiar with) without the bugs.


So, here's what I've done:

*Levels no longer exist, experience points do not exist. Anything that used to depend on level (basically, spells) now use the Cthulhu Mythos ranks instead (except healing - see below). A spell that dealt 1d6 points of damage per level now deals 1d6 points of damage per Cthulhu Mythos rank. So, Cthulhu Mythos is the only way a character "improves". Their knowledge of the Mythos makes their spells more potent, but of course, destroys their mind.

Wow that would make a cultist sorcerer very powerful.

*Maximum Sanity goes down by 5 per point of Cthulhu Mythos rank, as opposed to 1 to 1.

Well considering the hit in sanity you take from reading any mythos tomes. Your going to be losing sanity everytime you gain any CM ranks. In what ways can a investigator increase his sanity in this system?

*Hit Points are now equal to Con score, possibly more if the Toughness feat is selected. Hit Points are treated like Wound Points from Star Wars - when a character is damaged, they are fatigued. HP recover as if the character were level 1 (1 point per day, basically). Investigators are not heroic orc slayers.

*Toughness can no longer be selected more than once.

So the maximum damage a character with 18 CON could take would be 27 points of damage? 18 plus the 9 to -9.? And with the toughness feat it would be 30? So a Character with a 10 CON could take 19 points of damage before dieing.

*I use the D20 Modern skill list (plus Spellcraft, Psychic Focus, and Psychoanalysis) and feats (plus psychic feats), and damage values for firearms and such. I have, of course, retained the Cthulhu method of handling Languages (with ranks). Speak Language (Native) has a +5 native bonus, so DCs for a characters native language can still come into play. I have removed Cthulhu Mythos from the skill list and put it at the top of the character sheet, where level used to be.

*The new skill list is larger, so I've given more skill points. 40 + (INT mod x4) (which would be 10+[INT mod] per level, an extra 2 over the old system). "Core skills" have been eliminated, all skills are one-to-one, and my reasoning is as follows: Rarely did a character have enough skill points where their "core skills" mattered. They'd have more core skills than skill points to max them out anyway. So, now I just make sure their skill selections make sense based on the character they are creating. Also, Max Ranks = 5, just for the sake of more customization.

So how do characters increase their skills. Or are they pretty much as built with no chance of improvement.


Character creation:

Abilities: 25 (thinking of lowering this) point buy.

HP = Con + Toughness (if applicable)

Saves and Attack Bonus: Distribute these four numbers as you see fit among the three base saves and BAB: 3, 2, 1, 0. Then, of course, add the relevant ability mods for the final saves and attack bonuses.

Select 3 feats.

Distribute 40+(INT mod x4) skill points. Max Ranks = 5.

Wealth: Don't worry about it. This is basically a roleplay thing, and I, as GM, will make sure it doesn't unbalance things (my guy's a billionaire and owns several illegal weapons!)

I don't think anything else has changed.

"Advancement":

Cthulhu Mythos ranks go up. Max Sanity goes down. That's pretty much it. I haven't yet come up with a method of acquiring more feats or skill points or anything, but HP certainly will not change.

EDIT: Formatting

So basically you got rid of leveling but in the process you got rid of any way for the character to improve saves, skills, feats, BAB, etc.

Do you also port over these changes to monsters as well. Or do they keep their D20 stats and the like.

[FunGuyfromYuggoth]

I realize alot of work went into these modifications of D20, and I don't wish to derail the conversation, but if you're knocking off levels and considering a skill-based system, you may consider a realignment to BRP and use/borrow D20 elements that are worth keeping (House Rules). In this way, you won't have to worry about converting monsters, and the characteristics will be recgonizable to your D20 players, plus you have a large library of scenarios that you can pick up and use off-the-shelf with fewer conversion problems.

[smileytourist]

I'm confussed on the need for a change to the rule for max sanity proposed in this thread. In CoC D20, if you gain 5 points of Cthulhu Mythos you lose 5 points in Max Sanity. In BRP Coc, if you gain 5% of Cthulhu Mythos you lose 5 points in Max Sanity. Why lose 25 points to max sanity (plus any loss to current sanity you may receive) from a book, when 1d6-1d10 sanity points for running into the lesser mythos critters you run into early in the game.

[KenFinlayson]

I'm confussed on the need for a change to the rule for max sanity proposed in this thread.

You are right. There is no need to change the rule; it works perfectly well as is.

On the other hand, there are people (myself included) who would prefer Cthulhu d20 to handle the link between maximum Sanity and ranks in the Cthulhu Mythos skill in a way that more closely resembles that of BRP. There is no reason why Cthulhu d20 should do so, and it doesn't really make a difference anyway. Even if BRP investigators tend to become raving loons before the matter of maximum Sanity is important.

That said, I'll just explain things. In Call of Cthulhu d20, skills are measured on a scale of roughly 1--20. An increase of one rank means the chance of success increases by 5 percentiles. Five ranks means 25 percentiles. In BRP, a gain of 25 percentiles in Cthulhu Mythos would lower maximum Sanity by 25 points. In Cthulhu d20, a gain of 5 ranks --- being the equivalent of 25 percentiles in BRP --- lowers maximum Sanity by 5 points. Since Sanity in both games is measured on a 1--100 scale, the investigators in D20 have a better deal. (Well, only on paper. The real danger for investigators is Sanity loss from creatures and magic, not book-learnin'. So, as I say, it doesn't really matter.)

[smileytourist]

but that's not how skill points are handled in D20. You add your skill ranks, ability modifiers, and misc modifiers to what you roll on a D20. At first level, the highest rank you can have (on a normal skill) is a 4, but as you go up it raises. Also, the description of Cthulhu Mythos in the D20 book stats that you can't buy ranks in that skill, you gain from reading mythos tomes and such, and they are not effected by max rank. If a D20 1st level player sat down and read 5 books that each gave 5 mythos ranks, he would therefore gain in total 25 mythos points and lose 25 max sanity. If I remeber correctly (I've loaned out my D20 CoC book) they admit they stole the sanity rules directly from BRP.

[KenFinlayson]

but that's not how skill points are handled in D20. You add your skill ranks, ability modifiers, and misc modifiers to what you roll on a D20. At first level, the highest rank you can have (on a normal skill) is a 4, but as you go up it raises.

Hi smiley,

I think we must be talking at cross-purposes. I understand how skills work in D20, but I'm not sure what your objection is. The maximum number of ranks a character can have in a skill is 3 + their level (or half that if the skill is non-core). So that's anything from 0 ranks up to 23 ranks (maxed out at 20th level). That's a roughly 0--20 scale. (On the other hand, there is no limit to the number of ranks a character can have in Cthulhu Mythos.)

And it's true that more than just a character's ranks play a part in a skill roll, but for Cthulhu Mythos checks there is no associated attribute, synergy bonus or (I would say) circumstance bonus. Success with a Cthulhu Mythos check relies only on ranks in the character's skill.

If a D20 1st level player sat down and read 5 books that each gave 5 mythos ranks, he would therefore gain in total 25 mythos points and lose 25 max sanity.

No argument there. Perhaps our differences lie in how you're setting the check DC for Cthulhu Mythos? The rulebook doesn't give any examples, but I would expect the check DC to be on the same roughly 0--30 scale that every other skill uses. So, for example, an investigator who had 25 ranks in Cthulhu Mythos would automatically succeed at any check with DC 25 or less (which would be the majority of them). That character knows damn near everything about the Mythos. To achieve that level of success in BRP, an investigator would have to have 99 percentiles or so in the skill. As you've already calculated, the d20 investigator would have their maximum Sanity lowered by 25 points. But the BRP equivalent would have their maximum Sanity whittled down to 0. (The odds of this ever being important in-game are slight in the extreme; even an unexpurgated Necronomicon only gives +3 ranks to D20 investigators.)

Of course, if (in your games) the check DCs for Cthulhu Mythos range from 0 to 100 or more --- being totally unlike every other D20 System skill --- then you won't have any problem with D20 maximum Sanity not working like BRP maximum Sanity. So in such a case, the house rule about maximum Sanity being 99 - (5 x ranks in CM) is not needed.

[smileytourist]

I see the point now. I was under the impression that the only reason the house rule was being used was to make the players insane faster. The lower difficulty to skill check never crossed my mind. To be honest I only ran CoC for 2 times. The first try lasted two nights, with the second night ending with the All Flesh Must be Eaten fan (who missed the first night) using the appearance of zombies as an excuse to kill everyone on sight, and the second time everyone got made because the getting everyone together phase didn't involve anything mythos and they still managed to get killed or arrested. I like the D20 system but I get less psychatic, non-mythos related blood baths with BRP.

[Tzepish]

For the most part, I use that rule to restore it to the same levels of max SAN loss as in BRP. It also makes the players fear gaining CM ranks more, even if it doesn't mechanically affect them much.