Why my CoC group was dissolved. Death of a group..

[ErikB]

Incidentally, I was just forced to help my Dad marshal for one of his bike rides. Setting these things up is practically (hell, IS!) an unpaid second job for him, and I am buggered if I know why he does it. Anyway, rounding up enough people to man the checkpoints and make tea for the riders is an endless chore. They tend to end up being the long suffering families of the committee and any riders to old or too injured to take part in the events.

Anyway, this year they rebranded the marshals as 'Ride Makers', after the success of the London Olympics 'Games Makers' volunteers. I thought it was cute. Maybe you could give a 'Game Maker' shirt to anyone who helps with the running.

[wombat1]

I don't think that it is spoiling the players to provide access to some material. Were this any edition of A D & D, I would expect players to be reasonably conversant with the rules, and to supply their own, though even here the resident expert in my club shows up with not only the basics when he game masters, but the supplements to the height of about a foot thick. I also expect to have to provide all of the scenario related materials already, so the players have photocopies of character sheets, any maps of areas of which they have awareness, (like, for example, the city of Rome), a calendar, information about the money system, and so on.

However, BRP has rather the smaller of the two followings, and given the disparate number of games going on in the club, not everyone specializes in everything. Therefore, there is a copy of the rules and the materials for me (which I have specially marked in the flyleaf so that I know which set to grab, so that my notes, which sometimes get tucked into a book don't go out to the players,) and a set of table rules and materials for the players. If the players want to dig in the rules and materials to master the subject, I view that as a good thing, as it helps improve the mechanical quality of play. The monsters can be tweaked a bit if there is any whiff of gaming the system going on, and the spells almost never appear as written or named, so that works out as well. On the other hand, they can reference information about the combat system or the skills on the fly, and pose such questions as they wish to raise in a well-considered fashion.

It is scarcely a question of wealth--the material simply accumulates as it comes available at an advantageous price. Compared to spending for the Napoleonic fix, my other little specialization, cost is quite low, actually.

[The_Tatterdemalion_King]

So, wait, who's paying for the pizza now?

[Arlecchino]

I see a couple of things here. First, if you just want to play instead of run a game, just say so. Find a good stopping point in your current game and let them know that will be the last game you run...at least for a while. Leave it up to them to see who is going to run the game, and what game they run. If no one steps up to GM something, and you are tired of GMing, then it's probably time to take a break or find another group. That sucks, but the point of these games is to have fun, and if you are not having fun....

Secondly, is this more a question of player engagement? If the players aren't involved in the game and aren't committing time or energy to it, then I'd ask what they are doing at the table. If it's just goofing around and socializing rather than playing, then you might question why those players are there if everyone else is looking to play. If everyone is doing this, and everyone is still having a good time (yet this means you as well), then I'd question whether or not you should be gathering to do something as involved as an RPG to get together and have a good time. Personally, I've had a blast with RPG buddies just kicking back with a PS3 a copy of Soulcalibur, and a refrigerator full of beer - there's nothing wrong with taking a break or just kicking back with friends.

Thirdly, financial committment is a bit tricky. I don't know where you live, but here in Las Vegas, most people I know aren't doing well financially and $30-$50 for a set of books might actually be a hardship for some. If not, then just don't share your books. I get two copies of the core book for every game that I intend to run. One copy never leaves my hands or desk. My players, regardless of how many there are, get to share the one. After one or two sessions of of playing hot potato with a single book, they usually get the idea.

[Steff Worthington]

This. Reading this thread, I'm not sure I see why every player at the table would need a rulebook. None of my players have so much as skimmed the CoC rulebook, and I like it that way - if there's a sorcerer in play, spells are much more likely to confuse and horrify the players, just as a pursuit by horrible fishmen is scarier if they're not going, "Oh, it's Deep Ones, at least we know our bullets work this time."

If you were playing D&D/Pathfinder it would be a whole 'nother thing, as there are so many fiddly bits and things the players might want to look at like potential feats and spells that if you only had a single Player's Handbook you would be passing it around like mad. But Cthulhu lacks most of those elements....

This.

[Zarozinia]

This. Reading this thread, I'm not sure I see why every player at the table would need a rulebook. None of my players have so much as skimmed the CoC rulebook, and I like it that way - if there's a sorcerer in play, spells are much more likely to confuse and horrify the players, just as a pursuit by horrible fishmen is scarier if they're not going, "Oh, it's Deep Ones, at least we know our bullets work this time."

If you were playing D&D/Pathfinder it would be a whole 'nother thing, as there are so many fiddly bits and things the players might want to look at like potential feats and spells that if you only had a single Player's Handbook you would be passing it around like mad. But Cthulhu lacks most of those elements.

At the risk of putting words into JudoMonk's mouth, I think that whether everyone needs a rulebook or not is not really the heart of the problem that he had with his group.

We all know that you don't necessarily need more than one rulebook to play CoC. I don't need a fraction of the books that I have for CoC. I bought them (and continue to do so) because I enjoy them and I like to collect them. I would probably buy a rulebook for any RPG game that I was playing in and interested in. Obviously you don't need to buy rulebooks to be committed to the game, but it is indicative of that, and JudoMonk seems to feel that his players were not committed to the game to the extent that he wanted them to be.

JudoMonk's problem (again, forgive me for putting words into your mouth JudoMonk!) seems to have been that he felt that he was putting lots of effort into his games, and that he felt his players were not reciprocating. He wants to play sometimes and he wasn't getting that opportunity. FWIW then, I think his request of his players, to buy a rulebook and run a game session is a reasonable request. The way I see it, it is a 'SMART' target. It's one thing to say, 'I want you to be more involved,' or 'I want to be a player at least occasionally' but those are fairly vague requests: by saying, 'I want everyone to buy a rulebook and run a game' he is setting a very clear target with no ambiguity.

The fact that JudoMonk has wanted a group where he gets to be a player and his players either didn't realise that or didn't act on that suggests that having clear expectations is necessary in this case. There's nothing wrong with a group where one person is always the Keeper or where some or all people take it in turns to be the Keeper, or where everyone has a rulebook or only one person has a rulebook. What does seem to be something of a universal need though is for there to be a basic level of agreement between everyone involved as to what the expectations are, and the best way to achieve that is through talking to each other.

It's a shame that JudoMonk's group has ended the way it has, and I hope he finds a satisfactory solution, but I think, given the context, his request of his players seems perfectly reasonable.

[Mr. Bill]

JudoMonk's problem (again, forgive me for putting words into your mouth JudoMonk!) seems to have been that he felt that he was putting lots of effort into his games, and that he felt his players were not reciprocating. He wants to play sometimes and he wasn't getting that opportunity. FWIW then, I think his request of his players, to buy a rulebook and run a game session is a reasonable request. The way I see it, it is a 'SMART' target. It's one thing to say, 'I want you to be more involved,' or 'I want to be a player at least occasionally' but those are fairly vague requests: by saying, 'I want everyone to buy a rulebook and run a game' he is setting a very clear target with no ambiguity.

The fact that JudoMonk has wanted a group where he gets to be a player and his players either didn't realise that or didn't act on that suggests that having clear expectations is necessary in this case. There's nothing wrong with a group where one person is always the Keeper or where some or all people take it in turns to be the Keeper, or where everyone has a rulebook or only one person has a rulebook. What does seem to be something of a universal need though is for there to be a basic level of agreement between everyone involved as to what the expectations are, and the best way to achieve that is through talking to each other.

I'll agree with all of this, too. I actually have a little of this going on with my group - as I said, I dragged them to my dining room table a year and a half ago for what was, for most, their first-ever experience with an RPG. So of course I bought the dice and rulebook, and none of them have had a particular reason to purchase either on their own. There's also an element of my personality where I'm really bad about spending money, particularly when something is new and exciting to me, so I've since purchased several more CoC books and some half dozen other systems I haven't even had a chance to run yet. I like buying RPG books, I like reading RPG books and - and this is the thing - I like running RPGs.

I'm certain, JudoMonk, that you like running them as well (if you've been Keeping for basically six years), but I get wanting to play for once, too. One of my players has been running a (very) sporadic Hellboy/BPRD game between chapters of our Masks run, and he's in the process of expanding his storyline into a full campaign. Another player, who's never run anything before, is planning a pretty creative mystery story using the CoC/BRP rules, and a third just picked up a copy of Shadowrun that he's anxious to try out. And it's all a bit of a relief, and the fact that I find it a relief tells me I get where you're coming from.

Also at the risk of putting words in your mouth, it's not really about the inequity of money spent, nor the time invested - it would just be really nice to know that you aren't the only one enjoying this activity enough to dedicate something to it other than three hours a week.

At least, for me it is.

[Afraid of the dark]

I see where JudoMonk iscoming from. It doesn't take much to give back. There's free stuff out there. Shame you are not local to Portsmouth UK, as it's not easy to get people to play or Keep a game. You wouldn't be wasted down here!

[OptikaNET]

I thought of dissolving my group once, but I couldn't get hold of enough Sulphuric acid...

Kind Regards
Dave

[Danharms]

I thought of dissolving my group once, but I couldn't get hold of enough Sulphuric acid...

Kind Regards
Dave

I think our little group of investigators has enough problems right now, with Noah Whateley holding the Necronomicon, the Dunwich Horror attacking, and Keziah Mason being disturbed...

[The_Tatterdemalion_King]

If your group buys you dinner one night of the week I honestly can't see what the problem is.

[OptikaNET]

I think our little group of investigators has enough problems right now, with Noah Whateley holding the Necronomicon, the Dunwich Horror attacking, and Keziah Mason being disturbed...

I tell you, that spell was not supposed to be in there!!!

Kind Regards
Dave

[chicklewis]

I, too, think that Mr. Bill said it just about right.

I have suffered from "Keeper Burnout" and shut my games down for 3 whole years until my recovered enthusiasm caused me to restart a group.

But you might consider, Judomonk, another approach to what I perceive to being your gripe.

I had really wanted to play CoC as a player for ten years or so. I discussed this with my players, and asked if anyone would be willing to try Keeping a one-off game if I assisted with materials and moral support.

I got a taker, and then purchased one of the 'halloween' collections from Chaosium, handing it over to the prospective GM unread for her to choose a scenario. She dove into the prep cycle for her chosen game, asking me questions during preparation about rules, how things worked, etc, without spoiling the game for me. She was, naturally, amazed at how much work it was to do good prep. Then we went through the big miniature collection finding the bits she figured she would need, which did hint at what might happen just a little bit, not enough to affect my enjoyment of the game.

The newly minted Keeper's first game was SUCH a success that the other players demanded that Donna run another one for us !! For a time I was worried that I had been supplanted in my own group !!

Do you think this cooperative approach, 'growing' your new Keeper', might work with your folks, Judomonk?

[Skyman]

I was once running an open CoC group at the local game store that people could drop in and check out. It was pretty fun and I had a core number of players. Unfortunately(and fortunately) the group became the group in my area for gamers to meet and hook up. So at one point I had over ten players playing in a single game. I kept telling folks to look around and get to know the other players but too many people would show up. Needless to say people stopped showing after I had a break. That was crazy.

[onewild]

I don't think forcing playings into GMing is the way to go, yes encourage them but some people just aren't cut out for it. Another way to go might be to get them to look at something like Fisco, where there is no GM. Or another option could be one of the FATE systems like Spirit of the Century, where there is a GM but where the players are more active in the story telling process, it also includes a great section on how to be a good GM in it that really helped me out.
Or if all else fails, then instead of role playing, you could try playing board games for a bit to break things up.