Why my CoC group was dissolved. Death of a group..

[JudoMonk]

Here is a letter I sent my players. Do you guys have similar stories. Somethimes I just felft like I was being used...

Hello guys,

I have been doing some thinking as of lately and have come to the conclusion that the games I run will come to a halt...least temporarily. For I have been running rpgs for the last 6 years now. In this time I have spent tons of money on books and supplies along with countless hours preparing for the games. Do not get me wrong; I did enjoy myself and sure you did likewise. I have DM games for numerous players for the last six years and as of yet have not played but 2-3 games as a player. Players have never once bought any of the rule books nor show any interest in ever running a game...permanent players.

For things to change I will require each player to buy a set of core rules, for their chosen game(s), and having read them offer their time up and run a game. To have one person buying all the materials and running every game is sort of selfish or at least not caring.

I understand that money can be tight but if you have room for pizzas, magic cards, movies, other entertainment... than there is no excuse for not buying the rules for the games you wish to play. Lazy?

I hope I did not upset anyone nor cause ill feelings but somethings need to change before any more games are to be played. Hopefully we can work things out Look at the links below which contain games and their prices. For the price of a couple pizzas you can start supporting the games you like to play.

http://www.amazon.com/Call-Cthulhu-R...all+of+cthulhu

http://www.amazon.com/One-Ring-Adven...s=the+one+ring

http://www.amazon.com/One-Ring-Adven...s=the+one+ring

Game on..

Michael Marconi

DO NOT LET THE DREAM DIE: http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/...lv8-hpd03&tt=b

[Mulciber]

That's a shame but understandable. Did you try talking things through with them first?

Luckily we share duties of running things between three of us in our group.

[khyungbird]

Sorry, but I can't really understand why you quit your group over this. I *love* DMing (or Keeping, or whatever you wanna call it) and I don't have any problem with playing with a gaming group where no one else wants to DM. DMing is more time-consuming than playing, of course, but if everything goes right, it's the best thing ever.

The 'not buying the rules' thing... well, that's a little annoying if there aren't enough copies of the rules for the table, and everyone is always borrowing your copy. It's also a hassle if people don't *know* the rules (especially after six years)... I used to play a D&D campaign and it always drove me crazy that there was one guy who, after playing for months, still didn't know the rules for anything. But if you're saying the players have a duty to support the company by buying the core rules... well. I agree that it's good in principle, but it really doesn't seem like something to get angry with your players about. DMs always buy more books than players, that's just the way it is and RPG companies know it.

If your players are apathetic towards the game and 'just showing up to fill seats', then that's annoying; I sympathize. Maybe you all need a break. And if you are just burnt out on DMing and want to take it easy and play for a change, I sympathize with that too. But some gamers like DMing and some gamers don't; it'd probably be much easier to just find another group that already has a DM, and join them, rather than getting your existing players to DM. Frankly, IMHO, having a steady group that wants to game with you for six years straight is GREAT! You're lucky!!

[wombat1]

I agree with Khyungbird--any group that can maintain a single game for six years is a good thing and in pretty good shape.

Of your concerns, the one I would be most sympathetic to is the catering--if they do have money for pizza, they should at least bring an extra one along for you to the gaming sessions at no cost to you. Failing that, if you find yourself doing the catering to boot, that can stop, and everybody can go after the session for a nice snack at a cafe at their own expense. (Which is what my club has done for years anyway.)

Whenever the local used book store turns up a used copy of Call of Cthulhu 5th or 6th, I usually add it to my set of player copies--I basically keep a little library available for the players' reference, consisting of an extra copy of BRP and an extra copy of Invictus (or Dark Ages or 1920's Companion) and multiple copies of the rules, together with an out dated bank calendar on which I have marked all the Roman holidays listed in the Invictus book, and several maps of Europe and the Roman Empire. (Year of the marked calendar irrelevant, since I furnish each player with a copy of the then current calendar for 158 or 159 or whenever, as keeping track of game time is everybody's job.) Any of the materials can be borrowed between sessions, and I frequently lend one or two of the rule books out. The material has, of course, accumulated over the years. The players are pretty good about looking at the books they borrow, so knowledge gradually increases. As the members specialize in different game systems, the fact that no one has knowledge of all of the systems doesn't disturb me so much, since everyone knows enough to be able to at least ask intelligent questions of the expert for a variety of systems.

Ours runs under the auspices of a historical miniatures wargame club at the local university. If you want to talk about expense, look at that. The way to make a small fortune is to collect 1:1200 miniature warships, and start with a large fortune, and one of our members (a retired professor) has collected all of the battleships and cruisers which fought in WW II for all of the major fleets, and enough type examples of all of the light ships to recreate any desired historical engagement. We periodically carry out these games in the main ballroom of Iowa State University. Now THAT is an expense.

[Zarozinia]

You have my sympathies JudoMonk. While I agree with the other posters that maintaining a group for six years is no mean achievement, my instinct is that if you feel that you were being used you probably were.

I don't think it's too unreasonable to expect that at least some players would buy a rulebook: not so much that it is necessary per se, but more that it suggests a certain level of enthusiasm for the game. Obviously, some people really do not have the money to spare (and as with Wombat I have some spare copies for such players to borrow), but CoC rulebooks are not terribly expensive (a quick perusal on ebay shows three rulebooks available for under £10).

I think the crux of the matter is that you felt you were putting in far more effort than your players, and I do think there needs to be a certain level of reciprocity in an RPG group. People can contribute in different ways of course. In my last group, only one of the players bought a rulebook and ran some games, but others showed their engagement in other ways (writing a short-story for example or simply being enthusiastic about the game and appreciative of my efforts as Keeper!).

I don't really have any similar stories, but I did leave a group I had been in for a few years because I accepted their tastes were different from my own (they prefer 'heroic' fantasy games and only wanted to play the occasional one-shot of CoC). I spent years playing RPGs that I wasn't particularly interested in because I hoped they might return the favour (and I enjoyed their company!). I was lucky that shortly after leaving that group I managed to recruit a group of players who were very enthusiastic about playing CoC (sadly they have all headed off to university last month, so I am without a group again...).

Have you had any feedback from your (ex-)players yet? I hope that they either do respond positively, or that you find another group who are closer to what you're looking for.

[khyungbird]

I don't really see the "players not DMing" or "players not buying the books" as a problem (although if you're actually buying food for everyone, that's definitely beyond the call of duty...) -_- Honestly, I've DMed games (Mage and Kult) where I actually DISCOURAGED players from buying the rulebooks, because they had all kind of 'core rulebook' secrets that I didn't want them to know. (Of course, I'm not the absolute ruler of RPG World, so I had to just accept it when they did eventually buy the books and read all the sneaky backstory stuff I was trying to hide from them...).

If there's a distinct gap in enthusiasm, though, or if the players are disinterested in or actively sabotaging the kind of games you're running, then definitely, that's a problem. I can totally see a campaign falling apart due to personality conflicts/differences in taste (like Zarozinia said) or the players just not putting in an effort. Just not for purely financial reasons.

[Eryx_UK]

I agree that players should buy their own rulebook. I think that is only fair if they are going to stay in the game.

However, I think expecting them to run a games is a bit poor. Not everyone wants to and forcing it on your players is a tad harsh.

[CAThompson]

Buying the rulebook is fine, but the problem with Cthulhu books us that most of them are not for the investigators.

[Noble]

I feel your pain, I've been in a group where only 2 of the 8 players had rule books, or would DM, and it got on my nerves that no one offered to help out, they didn't appreciate the effort that went in to a game. I was working a 12 hrs day, in 7 day blocks, and getting it ready for the players became a struggle, they even moaned if I could get everything in place, and to cap it off 2 of them never brought dice!

I have moved on to another group now which is part of a Uni society, so things are different as the students can't afford rule books, which I understand.
I am trying to get some of the students to DM as I feel a Uni group should have a student in charge.

I hope things work out for you and your group.

[dawnrazor]

Hey,

I'm very sympathetic to your feelings, being the GM/DM forever (it feels like). But on the other hand I like being GM, and I have no problem with that. Some of the other players have run their own games (systems) and then I've been the player. So we have the Traveller guy, the classic D&D guy and so on. Me, I'm the CoC, AD&D, 2300AD, Kult, Twilight:2000, CyberPunk etc guy... After we finish our current CoC campaign one of the players have bought and are preparing a Pathfinder campaign. So, in a way, I guess that we're fairly "democratic" in that sense.

But on the other hand, it's me and two other guys that keeps the games going. We buy stuff, plan for games, send out invitations for play etc.

I guess that's the way it will always be. Some people love to game and put in more effort. Some come for the social context. Some like to play, but haven't got the time or the will to invest more in gaming.

Anyway, I think it's sad that your group are reacting the way it does if they don't listen to you. I've felt the same way at times, when it feels that the only one making things happen is yourself...

I hope that things work out for you and your gaming group!

A little sunshine story: About 1.5 years ago we got together and started playing after over 20 years of not playing, due to careers, spouses, kids, houses, mortgages etc. Now we play 1 sunday/month in average. So it's possible

[Cthimothy]

...and to cap it off 2 of them never brought dice!

Gah! This drives me round the bend. And when they forget to bring their character sheet I want to flip the table. But, I do consider myself incredibly fortunate that our group have been gaming together for 30 years and I can't remember more than a couple of unpleasant incidents.

Take a break for a while, put things in context, explain how you feel and you may be surprised at the result.

[Steff Worthington]

DM burn out. I totally get this as I used to be in a very similar position. If you can find a local club you'll probably get the chance to drop into a game or two. They might not be the game you want but at least youre playing. A good GM needs to play occasionally just to remain focused. I don'rt think you're being unreasonable and I think your mates should step up and run something they want to run. Why not suggest games that have very similar rules? like BRP, RuneQuest, or Legend? that way, new gm's won't be daunted by the rules.

Another way to take a break is to not roleplay for a while but still meet up to play games like Risk etc. A game where you arent concentrating all night and doing much of the work. Or go to a club or pub remember, they're supposed to be your buddies, not just gaming buddies.

Good luck and I hope you get it resolved.

[Laraqua]

I wouldn't bother getting them to run games unless you just want them to understand what it's like and empathise better with your situation ... simply because they'll probably be terrible at it! Plenty of people don't have the knack for running a game and if they did they'd probably be interested in running the odd one-shot at least. Even if they did have the knack without the enthusiasm, games running is a skill that needs to be exercised to work out. Unless they have a lot of enthusiasm and do a lot of reading up on the tips and tricks, they'll probably bore you senseless at the gaming table.

Still, if you're feeling under appreciated it might be worth outlining the painful aspects of it. I think that the trouble often lies with us. Just like underappreciated mothers, we give and give and give until we can't give anymore and then we get mad and fed up. We never asked for anything along the way and never pointed out all those inconsiderate elements. Heck, when the players pointed it out we may have laughed it off or even said it wasn't a problem. Perhaps it wasn't ... before it became a habit.

Look at those people who function as lending libraries to their players with multiple reference books for their players.... You know, you are spoiling them? It's a sweet thing to do but unless you happen to be richer than them (which can happen), than it's just a massive way to spoil them! Is it bad? Hell no. It's sweet. The players may be heaps appreciative of it, too. It sounds like you're pretty keen to do it too, which is good.

I've certainly been troubled by player antics. Me and a player cook their meals for them and then charge $2 a head which kinda covers the cost of the meal (which gets substantial for a weekly game) but it's really awkward asking for donations from friends on a weekly basis and we haven't quite figured out how to do it so they sometimes end up eating for free because we don't bring it up and they sometimes genuinely forget. Then enough time passes and I get cross because we can't really afford to feed an extra four people weekly. They are incredibly appreciative, though, and do try to remember it and even make a point of doing us extra favors to show their appreciation of all we've done for them game-wise. I've even had a player buy four books of an adventure path for me and I use another player's Bestiary so there's certainly some give and take.

I've totally bought dice for everyone to use as well. Some of my players gave me dice donations, though, so that really helped. I think it was more of a steady accumulation than anything else and it never really bothered me.

Anyway, long story short, it might be worth seeing if your players took advantage of your generosity (in which case another gaming group could help), if they simply didn't understand what you were giving up (in which case an explanation and a request that they run a game just to see the effort involved), or if they genuinely didn't know that you weren't super eager to cope with all those issues. If the last bit is the case then it might be worth seeing if you groomed them into bad habits by smiling through the problems until they snow balled into burn out. I think its something that we Keepers are prone to doing. We're performers and people pleasers. It's also something players are prone to accepting. Even after being a Game Master for years I've had to pull myself up as a player on the odd occasion that I am one for not paying enough attention or jotting down notes or otherwise being helpful and appreciative to the Game Master.

Final Note: Take a break. Seriously. Don't let anyone talk you out of it. Pat yourself on the back and perhaps keep the regular meet ups going with board games like Steff suggested, but give yourself at least a few months to see if its simply burn out or if your players are being inconsiderate.

[ErikB]

Why do you need multiple copies of the rulebook for Call of Cthulhu?

Character creation maybe, but isn't there a summary somewhere you could print out?

--

In all activities, most of the organising is done by a minority of the people. It can feel a thankless task if you are those guys, but know it probably won't happen unless you organise it.

[Mr. Bill]

Why do you need multiple copies of the rulebook for Call of Cthulhu?

This. Reading this thread, I'm not sure I see why every player at the table would need a rulebook. None of my players have so much as skimmed the CoC rulebook, and I like it that way - if there's a sorcerer in play, spells are much more likely to confuse and horrify the players, just as a pursuit by horrible fishmen is scarier if they're not going, "Oh, it's Deep Ones, at least we know our bullets work this time."

If you were playing D&D/Pathfinder it would be a whole 'nother thing, as there are so many fiddly bits and things the players might want to look at like potential feats and spells that if you only had a single Player's Handbook you would be passing it around like mad. But Cthulhu lacks most of those elements.

Now, the dice frustration I can sort of understand. I was the one who pulled my group together and only one person had ever played any RPGs before, so I just bought a pound of dice on Amazon, knowing nobody had their own. Now that we're a year and a half down the line, though, it would be really nice, if only as a show of enthusiasm, if any of 'em would buy their own set...