Need Help Expanding Our Horizons...

[Mr. Bill]

I'm not sure where, if at all, this thread fits, so I'm putting it here, but mods, feel free to move or delete if I'm wildly off-topic.

My group's been playing Call of Cthulhu for almost a year now. We're (hopefully) drawing the London chapter of Masks of Nyarlathotep to a close soon, so of course we've got plenty more campaign to go before I have any planning to do beyond the machinations of the Crawling Chaos.

Still, I'm constantly thinking ahead, and I'm sort of inclined to give my PCs a choice after this. Actually, a few have expressed interest in running a session or two of CoC, so we'll most likely bridge the gap between Masks and whatever comes next with a few one-shots, probably the few scenarios I haven't read between Unbound Book, Mansions of Madness and The Great Old Ones. After that, though, I want to give them a choice.

One option, of course, will be to keep going with Classic-era Call of Cthulhu, in which case I'd run either Tatters of the King or a heavily-modified Shadows of Yog-Sothoth next. I'll also give them the options of modern (Delta Green) and Dreamlands (The Dreaming Stone) settings. But I also want to offer other systems and more varied settings.

My group is more concerned with roleplaying and in-character dialogue more than almost anything else. The more involved roleplayers of the bunch have elaborate backstories and planned arcs for even their most (unfortunately) short-lived characters. Even the Loonies of the bunch (and we have a few) play their caricature or cartoon character to the hilt, with much gusto and commitment. Investigation would probably come next, with combat and anything else with extended dicerolling coming in last.

This doesn't mean I'm particularly averse to combat-heavy games; We've never played anything but CoC, which doesn't focus on combat and arguably doesn't do combat particularly well, so hopefully we can be forgiven for not understanding the thrill of a natural 20 against all odds. That said, story and setting, and the potential for really great characters, are what matter the most to this group.

To that end, I've started considering what other systems I'd like to offer them: If we were going high-fantasy, I've heard nothing but lovely things about Pathfinder as a more customizable alternative to the newer D&D. For another horror game, I'd probably gravitate toward one of the myriad New World of Darkness games (let's face it, probably Vampire though Promethean fascinates me). For a Loony-satisfying dose of madness/chaos/humor, I thought either Toon or Paranoia sounded cool. For pure geekdom and (so I hear) level of customization, Mutants and Masterminds would be fun. And, finally, Deadlands fascinates me in tone as well as mechanics (the idea of using poker chips and a deck of cards is just such a nice touch for the setting).

So... anyone have any opinion on these games? Basically any pros and cons, for any of them, in terms of telling a fun and elaborate character-driven story, would be helpful. And before you ask, yes, I know personal, character-driven horror is EXACTLY what Vampire and Promethean are there for, I just worry about the degree to which those games will/do descend into melodrama or whinging.

[wombat1]

I have not run it, but I have read Kenzer and Co's Aces and Eights, and find that a very intriguing rules set for an alternate history old west. You might look at that.

One possibility since others want to run as well as play, might be to do the one-shots, as you say, but, put the standard characters aside for a moment (they have gone off for a well-earned vacation.) and run the one shots using a stable of characters. Something like this:

1. Everyone, including you as current Keeper, is going to roll a character. One of these characters will be selected at random to be waiting in the wings. From what you have told us of your players, and their investigators with the lives of mayflies, we probably need more but for now one will have to do. Someone has to be Keeper, so we need one character less than the number of the group. The designer of the character will write down two or three character traits for role-play guidance on the sheet.

2. Everyone, possibly excepting you, is going to draw the title of a scenario to run. The player who draws it is in charge of preparing this scenario.

3. A schedule will be worked out. Everyone will get to run the character they rolled at least once. Everyone gets to try Keepering at least once. But at the next session, pass the character to the person on the right. The player can expand the story of this character, and make such decisions as desired, but should try to role-play the character in accordance with an understanding of the traits listed.

Would definitely be different.

[Shimmin Beg]

I’ve run a certain amount of both 4E and Pathfinder as well as CoC. Both are decent systems for specific types of game, I’d say. In both cases the players were new to the systems (and so was I, more or less). I’ve also listened to an awful lot of 4E actual play (as in, at least a couple of hundred hours).

4E places the focus of the game not only on combat, but on a specific type of combat gameplay. Tactical play is very much the order of the day; you’re managing resources, in the shape of limited-use powers, and hit points are very much another resource to be pragmatically sacrificed. Miniatures and battlemaps are more or less indispensable, since the rules are heavily based around positioning of creatures and counting squares. Combat is made interesting, but also largely constrained, by the powers available to each character. It also takes a really, really long time, partly because of time taken to work out tactical moves and choose powers; partly because everything has a lot more hit points; and partly because fights tend to be bigger (you don’t fight two orcs, you fight eight). An evening session might just about squeeze in two combats if you’re lucky. The characters are assumed to be competent heroes at first level, rather than the average bods that earlier editions sometimes use as the starting point. Notwithstanding the combat emphasis, my group had no problem roleplaying and being creative within the system.

The 4E campaign ended due to players moving away, not a problem with the system. However, I was already considering ways to speed up combat because it was proving a bit of a drag; none of us were especially into that side of gaming, and it was eating into our exploring, problem-solving and roleplaying time. If your group is not particularly into either combat or calculating, tactical play, I don’t think I can particularly recommend it (and indeed I notice it’s not on your list... well, too late).

Pathfinder I’m currently running for a different group (well, half new, half the 4E group). If you’re familiar with 3E D&D it’s pretty similar in feel and general mechanics. They’ve streamlined the skill system and some of the complexities of combat. It also seems to address class balance somewhat, so players are less likely to be wildly out of whack. I’m finding it pretty straightforward to run (although it’s much more fiddly than CoC). It’s good in terms of mechanically customising characters, although it’s still fundamentally mostly about searching dungeons and fighting things; some of my players have built characters that are basically civilians, and while it’s not been a massive headache, it does make things a bit difficult unless you’re up for creating a ton of homebrew content that’s based on social interaction and problem-solving rather than combat – which I’m not. Once you get to that point, I would gently suggest that maybe another system would be a better fit!

In terms of the game itself I have no complaints to make about Pathfinder, it seems a solid game with plenty of flavour for the different classes and races that should help with roleplaying opportunities. There don’t seem to be too many free scenarios out there, though, so you may need to build your own or adapt old D&D ones.

[Pookie]

If you want to try the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, but avoid the complexity, there is the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Beginner Box. This has everything needed to play a "basic" style version of the game and on the whole is very well done. It does need scenario support though, but that is something that the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game has in abundance. The Adventure Path series has several six part campaigns available, and the very first of these, Rise of the Runelords, will be released as a new collected volume come this summer. If not that, then the Kingmaker series has the adventurers go out and forge their own petty kingdom.

If the players like roleplaying, as you say that they do, have you thought about Legends of the Five Rings? The core rules has everything necessary to play and if the players want to be samurai, this is the place to start. The mechanics are simple, the setting is rich in detail, rivalries, and intrigue, and the players get to create interesting characters. We have been playing this for a couple of years now, and really enjoy it.

A more expensive option, would be Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, Third Edition. It is big and complex and detailed, and flavoursome. The mechanics take a little time adjusting to, but the game comes with good campaigns and scenarios, and we really have enjoyed playing it.

[Cole]

Mr. Bill, my gaming experience sounds similar to yours. After 14 months of CoC, we branched out into other games. Some we tried and tried, others took instant root, and a few just turned us off. Obviously, your results may vary.

Pookie named two faves: WFRP3 and L5R. Warhammer is quick to learn, and a game whose fiddly bits and gimmicks should have me hating it . . . but there's a certain someting in the mechanics and dice that makes it a blast. I have introduced about a dozen players to the game in the past year and they have all loved it. L5R is delightful in setting and mechanics, too, but the pseudo-Asian setting is less intuitive and demanding in our experience. There's not as much published adventure support for it, yet.

I went all in on Aces & Eights, because the books were pretty and interesting, and I dig the Old West. Sadly, I find the game very clunky, the rules way too crunchy. Deadlands is more fun, but I'm not a huge fan of the Savage World system itself.

DnD 4e just did not do it for us.

I only played Pathfinder once and loved it.

[Badger]

Out of all the games on your list, i've had the most experience with Paranoia. The latest edition gives the GM the option of running three different flavours of a game: "Zap", which is goofy and deadly as all get out, with players burning through clones like crazy; "Classic", which is more along the lines of the older Paranoia game- still darkly humourous, but less lethal; and "Straight", which is a lot darker, way more serious type of Paranoia game. Heavy RPers could really sink your teeth into that flavour.

Me, i've mostly played "Zap", which has been super fun and extremely hilarious. If your group wants to take a break from the constant doom and gloom that is CoC, it should do the trick. However, if your group really wants to get into the roleplaying aspect of it, they may want to move to "Classic"...that way, they might live a little longer to actually develop their characters.

-=badger

[wombat1]

Out of all the games on your list, i've had the most experience with Paranoia.

OOOOH!! Mythos-tainted Computer in Paranoia! I love it!

[Pookie]

If you opt for Savage Worlds, there are innumerable settings and campaigns. Most of the campaigns are detailed and plotted out, but do allow the characters to move around a lot, so that they have a lot more freedom in what they do. My favourites would have to be Fifty Fathoms, which mixes swashbuckling pirates, strange aliens, time travellers from the Age of Sail, and magic on a drowning world; and Sundered Skies, a post-apocalyptic fantasy world set amidst a myriad islands floating in a permanently day lit sky that puts more than a few twists on the traditional fantasy elements. (as a caveat, I have edited one or two books for Sundered Skies.)

This is in addition to the already mentioned Deadlands, which is Weird West meets horror. It is slightly more complex than standard Savage Worlds, but you can do a lot with it, and the setting is very well detailed. An alternative to Deadlands is Rippers, which combines nineteenth century monster hunting with conspiracies and a biopunk sensibility.

As a complete change from all of that, Eclipse Phase is one of the best hard Science Fiction RPGs available, being a post-apocalyptic, transhuman conspiracy and horror setting. Earth got nuked and more by sentient A.I.s that subsequently escaped the Solar System via Pandora Gates. Humanity lives off-world in habitats or various moons or planets, in an age of instant communication, advanced technology, and fear that the A.I.s might come back. The mind has become digital such that you can be resleeved in a robot body or swarm, an uplifted creature, or any number of humanoid designs built to specific uses. The core book really gives a lot of detail, and there is a set of Quick-Start Rules available, complete with scenario.

Lastly, if you want an Asian setting, but not the tight culture of Japan that you would get with Legends of the Five Rings, then Qin - The Warring States is a Wuxia style RPG set in Ancient China. There are not many books for it, but they are all good. The rulebook needs a good edit, but if you like films such as Hero or House of the Flying Daggers, this would be a good choice.

Anyway, too many games to choose from. Hope that some of the suggestions have whetted your dice. If you have any questions, please ask. You never know, I have a review or two of these sitting around.

[Skyman]

To that end, I've started considering what other systems I'd like to offer them: If we were going high-fantasy, I've heard nothing but lovely things about Pathfinder as a more customizable alternative to the newer D&D. For another horror game, I'd probably gravitate toward one of the myriad New World of Darkness games (let's face it, probably Vampire though Promethean fascinates me). For a Loony-satisfying dose of madness/chaos/humor, I thought either Toon or Paranoia sounded cool. For pure geekdom and (so I hear) level of customization, Mutants and Masterminds would be fun. And, finally, Deadlands fascinates me in tone as well as mechanics (the idea of using poker chips and a deck of cards is just such a nice touch for the setting).

So... anyone have any opinion on these games? Basically any pros and cons, for any of them, in terms of telling a fun and elaborate character-driven story, would be helpful. And before you ask, yes, I know personal, character-driven horror is EXACTLY what Vampire and Promethean are there for, I just worry about the degree to which those games will/do descend into melodrama or whinging.

Pathfinder-Keeps the D&D in the 3.5 system and adjust some of the aspects to it to make the game flow better. The setting is pretty fun.
NWoD-I tend to think World of Darkeness settings built more around player politics drama and supers game with draw backs. The aspects is kinda cool to create feel for characters. I have not read the promethus setting but the vampire, hunter and Geist are fun IMO. Social game and built around the player politics.
Toon-Have not played but I hear its fun as a one off.
Paranoia- PvP kinda game. Good for a one go but not continous play.
Mutants and Masterminds- I love the fun take on the d20 mechanics and they're is a fun setting with playing the Villians as reluctant saviours of the human race called Necessary Evil.
Deadlands-Have not heard about system but my friends seem to like it.

Outside of Savage worlds which some one has already mentioned I would suggest Dresden Files RPG, SoTC (Spirit of the Century) or Feng Shui for more pulpy goodness. Plus it makes teh players work on adding to the flavor of the game. Also there is Jason Morningstars- Fiasco.

[Zarozinia]

Have you made any decisions yet Mr. Bill?

If not, based on your signature and your preferences for role-playing, may I recommend Doctor Who: Adventures in Time and Space? Pookie wrote a review of it on Reviews from R'lyeh, and one of the (many) good ideas in the game is that it gives an advantage to players using their wits to talk their way out of trouble instead of fighting.

Apart from that, I would recommend having a look at RPGGeek. You can look for games by people's ratings or by genre, mechanics, etc. I really like the site because I can find recommendations for games based on criteria other than what games other people enjoy playing or what games companies have the highest profile in the market (for example, highly commercially successful games such as D&D, Pathfinder and WoD are actually not very highly rated on RPGGeek).

Good luck with your search! Do let us know what you decide on.

[Cole]

Also there is Jason Morningstars- Fiasco.

Excellent recommendation. Finally had a try last weekend. Great game. Gonna run it again on Sat with others. Great gateway game and palate cleanser that gets improv/coop storytelling juices flowing.

[MarkRyan]

May I bring a couple of recommendations to the forum?

Pendragon - I love this game; it has everything I like about role-playing all in one beautiful package.

Monkey, journey to the west - http://d101games.co.uk/books/monkey/. I discovered this gem at Continuum 2010 and it is an absolute beauty. Very light hearted without being silly.

cheers

corpse-eater

[Kallisto73]

Following your description, I would also see World of Darkness / New World of Darkness. You could check out Changeling the Lost, where the suspension of disbelief is not as high as it might be in Vampire. It also revolves around the role-playing aspect, but you could give it a PI-slant. Also, of course NWoD Hunter. You pretty much investigate the supernatural.

[Zarozinia]

I'd certainly echo corpse-eater on both of those games! I picked up Monkey after reading Noble's recommendation on another thread. I've not had a chance to play it yet, but I love the setting and the mechanics, and as corpse-eater said, the feel of the game is spot on if you're familiar with either the stories or the TV series. I think it would make a nice contrast to CoC if you fancied a change of pace.

[StuartB]

I'm actually playing Pathfinder with my local group currently and find its a very nice alternate to our long-standing CoC games. Great fun. I'm also currently looking forward to some Old School dungeoneering with Dungeon Crawl Classics, which should prove very nostalgic.

From your list, I could also heartily recommend Vampire. A very different take on the horror genre.

Whichever you choose, I wish you all the best!