(Note on SMGs) Hello from Central Indiana

[vedearduff]

Hello.

I recently joined this forum as my gaming group is about to start a 1920's campaign. I'll be running a Federal Agent, there will be a couple of players running Treasure Hunters and one running a Librarian plus one more player yet to create her character. I must say I'm looking forward to getting started.

I've read through a few threads and this looks to be a great community to get up to speed on the system.

I'm a bit of a firearms buff and I need to mention an inaccuracy I've seen posted. I forget the thread, but someone posted about the Thompson SMG. In this post, one of the things discussed was the difficulty of swapping drum magazines.

The information in that post was not applicable to the full auto SMG, the semi auto version does require the use of a "third hand" in order to lock the bolt back so that the drum may be removed. The full auto does not have this problem.

The original (full auto) fires from an open bolt. To prepare to fire, the bolt is retracted until it locks back then the safety is engaged (unless you plan to fire immediately).

The semi auto fires from a closed bolt. To prepare it to fire, the bolt is pulled back and allowed to slam forward and chamber the round then the safety is engaged.

I have one of the current production semi auto Thompsons, and the post I'm discussing would be accurate for this rifle. But the problems described in that post have little to do with the original full auto Thompson.

Vernon

[Durrandi]

Neat. Pics and/or Video of your rifle?

And do you believe this calls for a modification to the rules in a way?

[Steff Worthington]

An interesting observation but not one that would impede play. Thanks for pointing it out though, always in the mood for gun facts
As someone who only gm's modern day my players seldom, if ever, come across a Thompson. They did take down a warehouse full of deep ones with a Lewis gun though!

As far as I recall, someone (sixty stone press I think) is in the process of writing a series of books on era specific weapons. You may want to shoot (ahem) this fact over to them...

[vedearduff]

Neat. Pics and/or Video of your rifle?

And do you believe this calls for a modification to the rules in a way?

No, nothing in the game mechanics that I know of. It was a post describing perceived disadvantages of the Thompson and specifically mentioned the "third hand", which is a device inserted into the slot the stick mag goes into and is used to manually trip the pawl so that the bolt can be locked back. This is needed on the semi auto version since it fires from a closed bolt and there is no way to remove the drum mag with the bolt in the forward position. To use a drum mag with the SA version, you push up on the third hand to trip the pawl and pull the bolt back until it locks. Then you slide the drum into place from left to right while holding the mag catch in the open position. Once the mag is in position, you need to wind the spring. Once the spring is at the correct tension (this varies by mag capacity and whether the gun is a '21 or '28, or the SA). To load the SA version, pull the bolt back until the pawl releases and let the bolt slam forward.

Since the full auto fires from an open bolt, all you need to do to lock the bolt back is to pull the charging knob back until the bolt catches. At this point, either start shooting or put the weapon on safe.

When I get the chance, I'll shoot some photos to illustrate the third hand and its' use. In the mean time, here are a couple of shots of my Thompson.



Vernon

[vedearduff]

An interesting observation but not one that would impede play. Thanks for pointing it out though, always in the mood for gun facts
As someone who only gm's modern day my players seldom, if ever, come across a Thompson. They did take down a warehouse full of deep ones with a Lewis gun though!

As far as I recall, someone (sixty stone press I think) is in the process of writing a series of books on era specific weapons. You may want to shoot (ahem) this fact over to them...

I'll see if I can contact the publisher and be of any assistance. I can also put them in contact with true experts on the subject (the Thompson SMG).

Vernon

[Pazuzu]

So...how many game-rounds are we talking about for reloading?

[Gaffer]

Nice pics and interesting info, Vernon.

Once the mag is in position, you need to wind the spring. Once the spring is at the correct tension...

The spring cannot be wound ahead of time, that is, you cannot carry the drum already wound?

Approximately how long (in seconds) does it take to wind the spring and does it require a tool or any particular level of manual strength?

[vedearduff]

So...how many game-rounds are we talking about for reloading?

Realistically, I suppose I would go with two full rounds. Let's say you empty the drum on the current round. You would need to spend your next round removing and doing something (put it in a pouch, place it on the ground, or otherwise set it aside) with the spent drum, the second round you would spend installing the fresh drum. If you just toss the spent drum aside, most likely damaging it to the point it would be useless until repaired, you could (with a successful SMG roll) complete the reload in one round.

The above assumes that you are carrying a spare loaded drum. And yes, you could wind the mag ahead of time. As a matter of fact, I probably would have any spare drums loaded and wound if I were to be using a Thompson for a serious purpose. To be honest, I probably would use 20 round stick mags rather than the drum. Much quicker mag swap and you could have 120 rounds loaded in the 20 round sticks, one in the gun and five in a mag pouch, in a more compact and lighter package than if you were to carry two 50 round drums (one in the gun, and one in a pouch) which would give you 100 rounds.

The drum is much more prone to malfunction and can also be rather noisy, it rattles a good bit (even when wound). It is also more time consuming to reload rounds into a drum than it is to reload a stick mag. To load the drum, you have to take it apart.

Sometime in the next few days, I'll shoot a few pictures of the process of attaching the drum to the Thompson and the process of loading the drum. If I have the time, I see if I can shoot some video of the process.

With a successful SMG roll, you should be able to empty a stick mag in the current round and be ready to fire again by the end of the next round.

Vernon

[vedearduff]

Nice pics and interesting info, Vernon.



The spring cannot be wound ahead of time, that is, you cannot carry the drum already wound?

Approximately how long (in seconds) does it take to wind the spring and does it require a tool or any particular level of manual strength?

When winding the drum, you will hear two types of "clicks". You need to count the louder or more pornounced clicks. For a 50 round drum you need to wind either 9 or 11 clicks, 9 clicks for the '28 or the semi auto and 11 for the '21. The '21 had a higher cyclic rate and the drum needs the higher spring tension to keep up with that rate of fire. The 100 round drum needs 15 or 17 clicks as with the 50 rounder, it depends upon the gun being used. As far as how many seconds, I've never timed it but I will next time I load my L drum. Thompson mags are known by the Roman numeral for their respective capacity; XX = 20, XXX = 30, L = 50, and C = 100 rounds.

Vernon

[HANS]

I'll see if I can contact the publisher and be of any assistance. I can also put them in contact with true experts on the subject (the Thompson SMG).

Thanks, but the book will be out any minute now. I also like to think that I've done my homework. I own an original, 71-year old Auto-Ordnance M1928A1, which I shoot a lot . . .

Cheers

HANS

[PhoneCallOfCthulhu]

Hi vedearduff and welcome to YSDC.
It's funny as I was recently researching some basic info on the Thompson M1921.
Particularly I was wondering about the magazines size. So as I get it, the M1921 supported both 20 rounds mags and 50 or 100 rounds drums?
Could it be a good general assumption in the game to say that it takes 1 round to reload with a new magazine and 2 to reload with a new drum?
I'm just looking for a simple way to make both types have their own advantages, more bullets or quicker to reload.

[HANS]

Hi vedearduff and welcome to YSDC.
It's funny as I was recently researching some basic info on the Thompson M1921.
Particularly I was wondering about the magazines size. So as I get it, the M1921 supported both 20 rounds mags and 50 or 100 rounds drums?
Could it be a good general assumption in the game to say that it takes 1 round to reload with a new magazine and 2 to reload with a new drum?
I'm just looking for a simple way to make both types have their own advantages, more bullets or quicker to reload.

The main problem with the drums is that they don't work properly. Like most drum magazines, they are unreliable. Filling the drums is an involved process and can be done wrong by the untrained. They rattle. They are super heavy (anyone who's actually held one of these things will note that already the empty gun weighs a lot -- the drums add even more to that). They are bulky inserted in the gun, and they are bulky to carry as spares. Many shooters in the day preferred the box magazines, because they are sturdy, compact, easy to fill, easy to carry and reload, and feed perfectly. They also allow the gun to be carried concealed under a jacket (stock taken off).

All of this is covered, with game penalties etc, in INVESTIGATOR WEAPONS.

Cheers

HANS

[Steff Worthington]

[...] All of this is covered, with game penalties etc, in INVESTIGATOR WEAPONS.

Cheers

HANS

Is 'INVESTIGATOR WEAPONS' the title of the new book? Or are you referring to a section in the rule book? If it's the new book, as it isn't out yet, I thought it was a reasonable question. Changing the drum mid-combat must be a nightmare.

[HANS]

Of course it is a reasonable question. I was just pointing out that this is the kind of info you'll find in the upcoming book It will be out any day now . . .

Regarding the reload, it's not that bad. Any reload under stress is, well even more stressful, but professionals train for that so that the individual steps not only become faster, but also automatic. Pull the handle back, disengage the magazine catch, remove the empty drum, retrieve a new one from the belt pouch you're hopefully using, slide it in again from the left, and you're loaded. The advantage of the magazine, other than those already mentioned, is that you don't have to actively slide the magazine out -- it will just fall to the ground on its own, like on a well-designed pistol. That makes it a bit faster. Mind you, this is a wash in CALL OF CTHULHU, in which combat rounds are anywhere from 3 seconds (as per DELTA GREEN) to 12 seconds (as per BRP and THE LAUNDRY). Nobody needs THAT long. Incidently, you can see how the whole operation works in PUBLIC ENEMIES, which has several well-done reloading scenes. Even I can reload faster than Dillinger, though, at least the Dillinger portrayed by Johnny Depp

Cheers

HANS

[HANS]

Uh-oh, on re-reading Vernon's post, I'd like to point out that nobody inserts the drum and THEN winds it up. You do that well in advance.

Cheers

HANS