SAN loss for inadventent mass manslaughter?

**dysjunct** · 8th September 2003, 11:52 PM

Advice please!

I'm running a group of Cthulhu newbies through "Shadows of Yog-Sothoth". At the end of the first scenario, they more-or-less succeeded. They got the Gate Box in the basement of the Silver Twilight, but put off fiddling with it for a week. This was, I decided, enough time for the matching box (described in the scenario as being in upstate NY) to be collected by Stanford's cronies as they makes their way elsewhere.

In this case, elsewhere was to Europe. To make a long story short, by the time the PCs started experimenting with the box in their possession, Stanford's box was in the state room of a small passenger liner. After a bit of poking around the room, the PCs were surprised, combat ensued, and the trepid heroes dove back into the box and returned to Boston.

One of the PCs who didn't fit in the box had thoughtfully prepared some molotov cocktails, and as soon as the last PC came through the box, he threw the cocktails through and destroyed the box.

I decided this was enough to start a pretty bad fire in the state room, and as the PCs had barricaded the door before escaping, no one would find out immediately... and the liner burnt, then sank.

So my question is: how much SAN loss is appropriate? In their zeal to stop the Silver Twilight, the PCs caused the loss of many innocent lives (a few hundred) of people who just happened to book passage on the same ship as Stanford's assistants. Should the SAN loss be different for the molotov thrower (direct cause) vs. the other PCs? (Accessories to manslaughter?)

Help!

**RobStoll** · 9th September 2003, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by dysjunct

Advice please!

(incredibly funny story about hapless investigators snipped)

So my question is: how much SAN loss is appropriate? In their zeal to stop the Silver Twilight, the PCs caused the loss of many innocent lives (a few hundred) of people who just happened to book passage on the same ship as Stanford's assistants. Should the SAN loss be different for the molotov thrower (direct cause) vs. the other PCs? (Accessories to manslaughter?)

Help!

Well, I would give a greater loss to the person who actually did the deed, but everyone needs to suffer. I'd say about 1/1d10 for the accessories and 2/2d10+1 for the fatso firebug. I'm kinda extrapolating from the rulebook (is realizing you've killed probably over 1,000 innocents the equivalent SAN shock as seeing a "gigantic severed head falling from the sky"? Eh, play it by ear), but that feels like the right neighborhood. Losing up to 20 or 21 points of SAN may seem kind of harsh, but I think most folks would be completely devastated if they were responsible for that many deaths (even if one or two bad people were taken out in the deal). In fact, if the Molotov thrower only lost 2-3 SAN, I'd consider hitting him with an insanity anyhow ... only a complete sociopath would rationalize away something like that with such little personal impact.

Robert

"Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Tattulhu Fantasy Island wagh'nagl fhtagn."
"In his house at Fantasy Island dead Tattoo waits dreaming." (trans.)

Ia! Ia! Tattulhu fhtagn! The guest stars are right!

**Wood** · 9th September 2003, 07:28 AM

Best thread title ever.

I'd go with what happened above, but I'd let them roll first, so thwe loss would be maybe 1D4/1D10+1 for the accessories and 1D8/2D10+2 for the culprit.

**David_Conyers** · 9th September 2003, 10:39 AM

I remember the old days when I used to role-play games like Traveller, Dungeons and Dragons and (shame) Star Frontiers and Gamma World. When I look back at some of the activities of players they were no better than serial killers or mass murderers, but then again, isn't that what we see in so many Hollywood movies. Do a body count in a James Bond or Die Hard movie and you'll see what I mean.

I also consider the real world we live in. Sure its awful that fundamentalists destroy the World Trade Centre or bomb nightclubs full of westerners in Bali, but so is carpet bombing Afghanastan and invading Iraq, and even ignoring the plight of African countries at civil war is also abhorent. Who's the good guy in this scenario, I don't see any.

This is why I love Cthulhu so much as a RPG. Players are here to save the world, and they'll die and go mad doing it, but at least they might do some good. If they start mindlessly killing innocents, then in my books they are no better than the cultists they are up against. Sure accidents happen, they always do when weapons are involved, but means-justifying-the-ends approach I just don't accpet, so I dish out sizable Sanity loss when my players forget which side of good or evil fence they sit on.

Of course, insanities also get in the way.

Interesting post, I like this one.

Regards
David

**RobStoll** · 9th September 2003, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by I

In fact, if the Molotov thrower only lost 2-3 SAN, I'd consider hitting him with an insanity anyhow ... only a complete sociopath would rationalize away something like that with such little personal impact.

Let me amend that. Allow little SAN loss if it rolls that way. Maybe the firebug rationalized that, since he must have killed Carl Stanford or some other Silver Twilight high-ups, maybe the "collateral damage" was within "acceptable loss" range.

THEN you nail him with a huge SAN loss when he sees Stanford alive later on ...

Robert

"Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Tattulhu Fantasy Island wagh'nagl fhtagn."
"In his house at Fantasy Island dead Tattoo waits dreaming." (trans.)

Ia! Ia! Tattulhu fhtagn! The guest stars are right!

**David_Conyers** · 9th September 2003, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by RobStoll

THEN you nail him with a huge SAN loss when he sees Stanford alive later on ...

You'd be a real bastard of a GM (In the nicest possible way) so I'm sure your games are lots of fun.

David C

**FunGuyfromYuggoth** · 10th September 2003, 01:03 AM

I'd take a page out of the "American Werewolf in London" and have the investigators progressively lose SAN to their victims' visitations. How about the ghosts of children?

**Wood** · 10th September 2003, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by FunGuyfromYuggoth

I'd take a page out of the "American Werewolf in London" and have the investigators progressively lose SAN to their victims' visitations. How about the ghosts of children?

Ladies and gentlemen: we have a winner!

That's a fantastic idea. I'm going to use it myself should a similar situation arise...

**dysjunct** · 10th September 2003, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by RobStoll

Originally Posted by dysjunct

(incredibly funny story about hapless investigators snipped)

I left out possibly the funniest bit, IMHO.

During the gunfight after the PCs got surprised while exploring the stateroom, one of them took a critical hit from a .45 at point blank range and expired. (SAN loss for witnessing murder of close friend.)

Several rounds after the short-range gunplay ended (PC: "I listen at the door." Me: [rolling dice, blatantly not looking at them] "You hear a ringing sound." PC: "What?" Other PC: "Tinnitus, idiot!"), the two living PCs were wondering what the hell to do. They were in a ship somewhere in the world, lots of enemies potentially lurking around, with a slowly-expanding pool of blood beneath a companion. They decide they should leave, but what to do about their friend's body? They don't want to leave it on the ship to be discovered, and possibly lead the baddies back to them. So they stuff the dead body through the Gate Box (small SAN loss for grisly handling of friend's corpse) and it dumps out back in Boston -- much to the surprise of the PC left behind (it's at this point that he starts preparing molotovs).

The rest of the PCs come through the Gate. The firebug throws the cocktails through the Box. The three living PCs look at the dead one lying on the floor. They realize that the dead one is (was) a prominent professor at Miskatonic and a wealthy high-society type. In fact, they're standing in her house, watching her bleed all over her Persian rug.

The PCs start stressing out. How will they explain the death? Will they just leave the body to be discovered? What do they tell the inevitable police detectives, who are possibly receiving payola from the Silver Twilight? They decide that a mysterious disappearance is better than a body. So they stuff the body back through the Gate Box for a second time (another small SAN loss for [mis]handling of friend's corpse), destroy the Gate Box while swearing at it, and then send the rest of the gaming session cleaning the rug.

I mentioned to one of my PCs that I was sharing this story, and he wanted me to state that, for the record, he was under extreme duress.

**JoeKilmartin** · 10th September 2003, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Wood

Best thread title ever.

I'd go with what happened above, but I'd let them roll first, so thwe loss would be maybe 1D4/1D10+1 for the accessories and 1D8/2D10+2 for the culprit.

Make sure there's a NICE BIG PHOTO of the blaze at sea with 911-styled images of women, on fire, clutching their babies as they try to jump for the lifeboats - taken from the ship that came to their aid at sea - published in that week's MID-WEEK PICTORIAL SUPPLEMENT to the NEW YORK TIMES or something as public as that to hammer home the horror.

And yes, the one who tries to rationalise it is a budding sociopath and make your own adjustments on his sanity, to taste.

I can't wait to run Shadows of Yog Sothoth... I've found a sneaky way to get my players memberships in the Silver Twilight and I'm laying the ground work good and slow for it. I always kind of disliked the assumptive "You're all members in an exclusive Boston men's club - except for you women who are in the ladies' auxilliary" into to the original game scenario. Has anyone else considered a "Satan's School for Girls / Thing on the Doorstep" angle for introducing female characters into SoY-S? It is a little androcentric. Carl Stanford is the ultimate Kaiser Soze type and the better he knows each of them as an avuncular buddy before he gets all Christopher Walken on their asses the better. I'm going to have John Scott be the one who they *think* is the villain so their old buddy can be seen holding the knife later.

Joe

**Nightshade** · 11th September 2003, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by JoeKilmartin

Make sure there's a NICE BIG PHOTO of the blaze at sea with 911-styled images of women, on fire, clutching their babies as they try to jump for the lifeboats - taken from the ship that came to their aid at sea - published in that week's MID-WEEK PICTORIAL SUPPLEMENT to the NEW YORK TIMES or something as public as that to hammer home the horror.

That is an aswome idea!
This photo is a good start as is this, this, this,and this great one here.

Some are small but I hope they help.

**RobStoll** · 11th September 2003, 02:10 AM

Originally Posted by dysjunct

Originally Posted by RobStoll

Originally Posted by dysjunct

(incredibly funny story about hapless investigators snipped)

I left out possibly the funniest bit, IMHO.

(possibly the funniest bit snipped)

I mentioned to one of my PCs that I was sharing this story, and he wanted me to state that, for the record, he was under extreme duress.

Where can I get me some bonehead players like that?

Robert

"Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Tattulhu Fantasy Island wagh'nagl fhtagn."
"In his house at Fantasy Island dead Tattoo waits dreaming." (trans.)

Ia! Ia! Tattulhu fhtagn! The guest stars are right!

**dysjunct** · 11th September 2003, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by Nightshade

That is an aswome idea! This photo is a good start as is this, this, this,and this great one here.

Some are small but I hope they help.

Thanks! I'll be sure to put flash these in front with appropriate sob stories about the humanity of it all....

**dysjunct** · 11th September 2003, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by RobStoll

Where can I get me some bonehead players like that?

Hmm, I dunno. Honestly though, I couldn't ask for a more desirable group. I have four regulars -- two of them are men who are pretty experienced RPers but for some reason have never played CoC before. The other two are women who have never played any RPG before, ever. So I don't have to deal with the "I burn the book and then go hide in a hole" syndrome that afflicts a lot of players.

The really great part is that it's always the guys who pussyfoot around. The women tend to be a lot more assertive and willing to take action. It makes for great taunting: "You're going to let yourself get shown up by a girl?!"