Using a different system

[KeithOoloo]

I'm toying with the idea of introducing the use of a different game system in my game. My problems stems with the ease in which characters seem to die. It could be said that that is their own fault - but it still happens with alarming regularity. I'm also loath to alter dice rolls etc. to keep invetigators alive - being a simulationist in that regard. A couple of my players enjoy character development, and lose interest in the game when they keep dying. I also want to develop characters for campaigns such as Masks and Beyond MoM - I never seem to get there.

So, I was toying with the idea of using a differnet system for some of the game mechanics. There are a couple of skill-based systems in mind that would work nicely - Harnmaster could work well I think and translate fairly easily (but a problem with dealing with firearms in the 1920s). Rolemaster on the other hand has extensive rules for firearms so could be a good alternative - though has more stats/is a bit more fiddly than Harnmaster.

However, every time I think this is a good idea, two objections raise themselves in my mind:

1. Will it dampen the fluidity of CoC? Will the rules intrude into 'roleplaying' and will CoC lose some of its special atmosphere?
2. All the conversion work translating monsters and spells into the new system could be a bit of a headache?

Interested to hear other's thoughts on this!

[Agent_Donald]

Have you looked at Nemesis?

It uses the One-Roll-Engine which seems a bit strange for gamers wo are used to percentile dice, but it is a nice rules system.

You can download the free rule book on Project Nemesis:
http://www.nemesis-system.com/downloads/5.html (registration necessary)

[Edsan]

There is no need to change game system if you want to keep the characters alive. I have found CoC is almost perfect. But if you want to keep the characters alive here's a couple of ideas just of the hat:


- PCs only die when they get to -4 HP or below. At 2 or less they go down from 0 to -3 they are dying and will kick the bucket in a period of time varying from a scene to a day. If you are playing Cthulhu Now you can rule that even PCs at -4 or less can be "ressurected if taken to a modern hospital in time. No rolls are necessary but make then loose, say 1d10 SAN from a near-death experience.

- Make Hit Points equal to the TOTAL sum of SIZ and CON and double weekly healing rates and HP recovered via First Aid or Medicine.

- Ignore the Shock rules (no more CON rolls from loosing 50% opf current HP), but PCs still go unconscious at 2 HP.

- Give PCs 1d3+1 "Fate Points" which they spend to avoid certain doom. The points are permanently spent. (A nod to WFRP 1st Edition)

- Give the PCs "Hero Points" equal to: "(STR+POW) / 6 rounded up". These points regerate every new scenario or if enough downtime as passed in your opinion. They grant +50% to ONE SKILL ROLL and may be used to bend the rules a bit (i.e. dodge bullets, get an extra attack, dodge and parry the same round, etc). They CANNOT be used for any rolls related to Sanity, Attribute rolls, Resistance table rolls or skills in which the character has a rating of 01% or less. Using a skill sucefully while spending a Hero Point NEVER grants an experience check.
AT your discretion Hero Points may be used as Fate Points above but they are permanently spent. (Stolen from "Le Resseau Divin" campaign)

- The "Over the Edge" way: Unless a character "dies" in a way that destroys his body (i.e. being crushed by a train, burnt to ashes), given time and medical attention he will survive if:

a) Player makes a Luck roll.

b) Player gives the Keeper a suitable "reason to live" for the Investigator.

Time required for healing is at the Keeper's discretion as are the lingering effects of a close brush with death (scars, loss of APP, STR, DEX, CON or body parts, etc). A SAN loss for the whole traumautic process is advisable; let's say 1d6/1d10 SAN.

- Make them roll a lot of Idea checks. If the players are to dumb and lack common sense maybe their characters can do a better job.

- Tone down the monsters. In some published scenarios the number of monsters in a single encounter are insane (pun intended). If the thing is bullet-proof then one is more than enough.

- Use the "yum-yum" or "refinements of malevolence" cliches. If an Investigator DOES go down the beasties take a few rounds to eat/mutilate/flail the corpse around with a tentacle, giving the others time to escape. If they don't run away you can wash your hands clean of the whole affair.

- Use the "henchman cliche". When REALLY dangerous encounters happen make sure they have a couple of hangers-on around, which of course will be the first ones to get shot/dismembered/dissolved/eaten/etc when the feces hit the fan. This not only avoid one messy Investigator death it also forces witnesses to roll SAN due to the horrible fate of the NPC...muhahahahaha!


If you use any or (gasp!) all of the above and your Investigators keep dropping like flies then I give you the Number One Rule on increasing CoC character's life-span:

"Get Smarter Players."

[RPGuru]

The harnmaster system should translate well. In my main CoC group we have (d)evolved into using a hybrid system based on the good old Coc rules set, but incorporating the combat and damage system from harnmaster, and the sanity rules from unknown armies. This works superbly, at least for my group.
If you wish to use harnmaster, there is a firearms rules set for harnmaster gold floating aroun on the net. its called gunmaster gold, and should be found here: http://www.warflail.com/harn/index.html#GMG
If you cant find it there try snooping around on harnlink: http://www.harnlink.com/

[David_Hallett]

If you want players to die less, it seems a bit odd that you are leaning towards crunchier, more detailed, more "realistic" combat rules. I would have thought something more cinematic, like Savage Worlds or SotC might serve you better. But YMMV.

Either way, I am (still) working on adapting the FATE system (on which SotC and the upcoming Dresden Files game are based) to Lovecraftian horror. If you would be interested in playtesting it when (if!) it's finally done, drop me a PM.

[Nemo235]

Worlds of Cthulhu issue two has the rules for Wild West Call of Cthulhu.

It has optional cinematic wound rules to simulate gunfights seen in westerns.

Basically the character can be reduced to zero hit points a total of three times.
The first two times they will recieve a serious wound with penalties to attributes and skills, and will most likely be knocked out.
The third time they go to zero hit points, they are out of luck and finally die.

This only works for player characters and major NPCs.
Secondary characters may recieve only one serious wound, then die.
Most thugs or "normal" people die the first time they reach zero hit points.

These are just the basics. The article also includes rule for healing serious wounds, remaining conscious, gunfighting, etc.

Though the background is based on the wild west, parts of the rules could be used in any era.

[banshee]

The old TSR Gangbusters game has a Luck check mitigate the effects of deadly ("would have killed") damage.

It divides into three more or less arbitrary versions:

- Damage is reduced to one point
- Damage is halved
and
- Character is "almost killed", hit points reduced to 1.

[DarkDesigns]

I considered this. I ran a modern horror game using Savage Worlds and it worked out great, but I've also ran World of Darkness games using mortals that were awesome too. BUT, I quickly came back to Cthulhu and am staying there.

We've not had any problems with character death in CoC that was any different than our other games of similar tone. Mind you, we see few (if any) deaths in something like Star Wars or Indiana Jones, but a Horror game? The Savage Worlds game I ran ended with 2 of the 3 characters dead. The World of Darkness game ended with everyone in prison...

My players have been warned about the deadliness of CoC, so they've all made 2 characters, "Just in case". They know that if they're not thorough, or miss a certain clue... bad things will happen. So, our game tends to have far more in-character role-playing than others, which I'm all for.

As for other systems, Nemesis is out there for free. I read some Cthulhu conversions for True20 on their forums yesterday. Savage Worlds will work. World of Darkness has an unofficial World of Cthulhu conversion...

A great game with many, many ways of delivering it.

[Fu_Manchu]

In CoC, characters will go mad, and then die, usually in that order. Munchkin players accelerate the process, I like to think of it as a Chandler vs Lovecraft equation. Put either or their characters, in the others stories, and they will be the first to die. A CoC player who reaches for their M1911A1 .45acp blah, blah, blah when confronted with eldrith terrors beyond the ken of mortal men, may as well cover themselves in bbq sauce. Lovecraft didn't use the phrase, "guns blazing" once, nor did any of his protagonists debate the merits of .380 over .32 when deciding on a suitable pocket pistol. CoC is an excellent, 'Lovecraftian' game, because it manages to convey (with the help of a Keeper) the atmosphere of the works it is based on. While remaining true to the essence of the Lovecraftian mythos, it cannot sensibly encompass the works of later writers, who attempted to portray their protagonists as elder sign wielding heroes (because, they are in the habit of - understandably - dying).

If your players die frequently, but fail to modify how they approach the game, then they will continue to die with a similar frequency. The solution is not to change the system of the game, because the players persist in attempting to play a different one. The solution, if your players absolutely will not even attempt to roleplay within the context of the Lovecraftian mythos world, is to simply play a different game. There are many games with detailed rules about big guns, and hosts of tentacled monsters, try one of them. The players are playing for their own amusement, and if that's what's fun, then do that. But Lovecraft isn't that.

Why is CthuluTech more like SLA than CoC? Because there's very little Lovecraft in it (apparently,... which isn't to say that it's not a whole lot of fun, because it probably is, if you like that sort of thing). "Heroic Cthulhu" with its Indiana Jones clones, massed tommy-guns, and the charge of the trenchcoat brigade [two points to the first person who spots the reference], might be many things (such as silly for example), but it's not Lovecraft. If you want to play something else, then just play something else. I mean, if your players wouldn't be entertained by reading their way through a stack of H.P.L. pulp's, but would rather sit through 'The Raiders Of The Lost Ark (or indeed whichever one it was)' to try and spot when Indi' used a Browning HP, then you may as well play a different game.

Can you fsck with the CoC rules enough to make it munchkin friendly, of course you can. Can you transplant some of the elements of the game across to another system, to accomplish the same thing, of course. But it won't be Lovecraft, and by extrapolation, it won't be CoC, and while the option of creating a completely different game is open to you, why not just pick up a different one? If Lovecraft isn't your players idea of a good time, then forget CoC.

[Ssnake]

Fu, I think you're talking about Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. While Indy isn't your typical Lovecraftian protagonist and there's too much comedy in it to make it an adaption "in the spirit of Lovecraft", it still does have a lot of merit - not the least because Indy shoots with the browning about once in two films (and in the third not all too much either, actually), and in the Temple of Doom he's confronted with the epitome of evil cultists (arguably our and Lovecraft's image of evil cultist may very well be based on the 19th century stories of the Thugees of India anyway). There's supernatural horror in it which, at the end, is turned against the (clearly insane) high priest.
If you can look past the comedy elements and the fact that Indy easily exceeds the skillpoint formula of (2d6+6)x10 + (3d6+3)x20 - well, you may actually find a lot of Lovecraftian spirit under the surface.

Not that I am promoting that CoC games should be more like Indiana Jones movies, but I think that especially the Temple of Doom is much better than one might think at first sight.

[gloomhound]

Can't get much more Cannon than Spawn of Azathoth, Masks of Nyarlathotep and thy seem to drip pulp.

[Fu_Manchu]

Thank you, that essentially is my point.

Whatever movie it happens to have been. I.Jones clearly has a great deal of appeal to many people, and his archetype has become the basis of a plethora of works. But, while elements in common can be argued (just as there are elements in common between Lovecraft and Haggard if you look hard enough), those common elements in no serve to liken the theme of one work with the other. They remain, essentially, distant from one another.

-- It's easy to play SoA, or MoN, in the mode of the globe-trotting I.Jones Pulp hero (while dying, frequently). But it's just as easy to interpret the material differently.

N.B. I'm not for a moment saying that my interpretation of the Lovecraft mythos is any more, or less valid than anyone elses. But the lantern jawed, gun toting, bullet proof hero doesn't fit into my reading of Lovecraft. Maybe I'm reading the wrong books, in the wrong ways. If so, please enlighten me.

[neilford]

I'll just put in a word for Gumshoe which emphasises the investigation aspect. I would also recommend Nemesis.

But ultimately, if the players want to die less, maybe they need to tread a little more carefully, regardless of system

- Neil.

[moonbeast]

I'm toying with the idea of introducing the use of a different game system in my game. My problems stems with the ease in which characters seem to die. It could be said that that is their own fault - but it still happens with alarming regularity. I'm also loath to alter dice rolls etc. to keep invetigators alive - being a simulationist in that regard. A couple of my players enjoy character development, and lose interest in the game when they keep dying. I also want to develop characters for campaigns such as Masks and Beyond MoM - I never seem to get there.

This is exactly why I look forward to Pulp Cthulhu.

While Pulp Cthulhu isn't "standard Lovecraft-atmosphere Cthulhu" it seems like more of a game system where the Characters are hardy "larger than life" heroes, much like you see in the stereotypical pulp-adventure movies like Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark). In this kind of "high adventure" genre, the heroes rarely die, and those heroes actually have certain feats/traits which keep them alive longer than ordinary peons. And if they do die, they usually die in the end.... after many many years of adventuring and campaigning, and they will often die with a typically big finale worthy of the Pulp Action Genre. =)

Exactly as it is written in BRP, CoC characters are fragile things.

[Ssnake]

I've tried my share of the German version of Cthulhu pulp which is out already (Pegasus decided to cross-market the whole thing with some actual pulp series that's still in production), and I don't think that I'm too happy about the consequences. Sure, you still have the investigation part, and it can have a nice 1950s sci-fi retro touch - but then again, tripled hitpoints and the option to have psychic powers not necessarily leads to better role-play. In fact, it seems to encourage overly aggressive acting on the PCs part. It may be fun for some, but I think that CoC is still going strong after 25 years because the PCs are so fragile - among other reasons.