Pacing San loss

[Newt]

Howdo one and all

Been a while since I ran Cthulhu, bout ten years or so. I recently ran the first of a five scenario arc that I've got planned. I'll post details of it in my journal over the next couple of days.

However the biggest problem I had was pacing San Loss. Being the first game I didn't want to drive anyone over the edge straight off, since plot threads were being laid and heck I wanted it to be a fairly laid back introductory game.

So the first big encounter was with the "Haunted House" (ok so it was alot less cheesey than that.....20 years of GMing experience have taught me a trick or two...but that was the basic premise). Que first san loss for the entrails of blood down the hallway. Followed up with more San loss seeing the Ghost, then the horrific murder scene, another for more horrific sightings of the ghost, and relealising what was going on in the whole scene I got the description just right and the players were hooked. But stopping and rolling the dice for san broke up the narrative and made me feel like my plot was at the mercy of some random rolls. i.e I was trying to steady build up of terror, which could have been thrown out of key by one of the pcs lossing it.

I did think that less rolls, but at significant points....entering the house and its distrubed atmosphere, seeing the murder (a high point in the terror), but not for events that didn't up the fear so to speak.

Another idea was fixed but small san loss for the horrific events which were not such high points of the story, and dice rolls as normal for the more dramatical significant moments.

Wadda think?

[Jeff_Campbell]

I have had the same problem that you have- and I have never found a great solution.

I tried small cards with a san loss on them (i.e. 1d6/1d20), that I would flip up, hoping that I could continue the narrative uninterupted. Didn't work.

I tried to say that sanity loss only occured after the running and screaming- but that lacked impact, and the fun of losing it in the thick of things.

I like your idea of fixed san losses for the small stuff. In reality, that's what a 1d3 or 1d2 is, except in those rare instances when someone is right on the edge, but that will happen anyway.

So what I do now is just run it- with experience, the San mechanic becomes transparent. I just interject into my narrative "San roll- d4 slash d6" and my players play out their insanities as they see fit most of the time. If I have specific plans I impose them. I like the insane insights, so they ask if they get one. It is mostly painless.

[ossadagowah]

One thing I thing works well is to call for San Loss immediately
before describing what it is that's so horrible.

For Example:

KEEPER
You hear a loud thumping coming from the front door of the house.

PLAYER #1
Ok, I'll open the door and see who it is.

PLAYER #2
Me too. I'll go with him.

KEEPER
All right. You open the door, and now you have to roll SAN.

PLAYERS #1 and #2
Aaugh!

PLAYER #1
Made my roll.

PLAYER #2
Missed it. Dang.

KEEPER.
Player #1, you lose 1D6 san. Player #2, you lose
1D20 San. #2 loses too much and faints dead out. The other's still
with it enough to deal with the threat.

The monster is a blasphemous mixture of dog, ant, etc ....

[malcojones]

I like the idea of san rolls before description, though my players sanity, sorry, player's character's sanity is getting low and I try to give the thing the big build up, make it sound as horrible as possible to justify the roll they know they'll have to make. This has led me to miss enforcing a few rolls (I got carried away and it seemed nitpicking to go back and try and retro-fit san loss), but overall the accumulation of tics, phobias and manias is the pleasure of playing san, not (for me) the instant annihilation of characters' wits that an encounter with a GOO threatens. Best, Malcojones

[Eero]

The idea of calling for sanity rolls before giving the description of the scene portrayed is truly a fine one. Have to try it next time.

[zadkiel]

[color=indigo]Hi gang!

In my opinion, sanity pacing makes or breaks a campaign. A Keeper can have great organizational skills, truly disturbing descriptive talent, a panache for combat, or a knack for characterization of NPC's. If the Investigators go insane; especially en masse in the middle, not the end, of a scenario or campaign; then the campaign FLOPS. No Payoff. Pack up dice and go home unrequited , or experience the dreaded chain of PC's effect so common to CofC .

As a Keeper, I ask just how many of those little 1d2 san rolls are really necessary, and how often they break roleplay. When using printed material I wing my way through SAN checks to my whim. I err to the side of easy at the beginning of scenarios and campaigns, and get steadily creepier as we go. The key is to hold off on the big 1d6/1d10-20+ SAN checks for a LONG time, then pull them out as people come to awful realizations mentally or see/interact with "THINGS" . This should usually be in the 4th of a 5 story arc, or about 6-6.5 hours into a long one-shot. About 2.5 to 3 hours into convention events scheduled for 4 hours is a wise decision. However, a Keeper has more control there than a home scenario due to time curtailment.

For campaign play, *use the SAN reward system* . Be decent to the Investigators. Make sure to have SAN rewards built into your scenarios, and err to the side of MILD generosity. The game then can take its stealthy insidious toll on the Investigator's minds; racking up quirks 'n' phobias and philias(ick) oh my without them heading to the nuthatch until YOU the Keeper and your players have had plenty of reality-blasting fun.


Yog-Sothoth Neblod Zin

Fred in Milwaukee

[CAThompson]

I've had this problem a bit too. for san costs, it really depends, in the case of something simple, i can stop the flow for a moment and demand SAN rolls from PC's. for other things i simply will charge SAN as i see fit. Another way (a bit of work on my part) was to call for ten or so rolls before the game from each player and use them for spot hidden/listen/notice evil thing rolls to be used in situations where "Make a spot hidden roll as you go into the forest" would tip my hand. These rolls can also be used for SAN, just look at the roll and check it against the running tally of the invistigator SAN, a simple thing like "and mark off 4 san" is easy to do without slowing the game too much.

As for SAN rewards while i give en out for doing something right/good (i handed out 5 to everyone at the end of one game alone!) generaly i rely on the PC's to figure out ways to earn SAN on their own. for example, one of my Players is the godfather of a little girl, she is good for a few SAN points now and then, when he has time and is nearby (she lives in San Francisco) a day with her can net a SAN point or two (taking her to the zoo or other such happy activities).

[Innsmouthresident]

CAThompson's idea for regaining sanity is brilliant! So much I thought about it a little more and expanded on it.

RULES FOR REGAINING SANITY
So far in the rule book, a character regains 1D6 san or so for killing a monster or overcoming an evil, as well as the 90% skill rule.
With my limited knowledge of psychology I came up with a few other exercises the characters might do to regain some sanity.
1. Human interaction- this is pretty much already covered with the psychoanalysis skill, being that talking to someone about your problems often helps fix them or at least ease your mind about them. If someone with the psychoanalysis skill is not available however, perhaps talking to 'normal' people around town, or old friends may help (regaining a san point or two). If the characters are willing to sit around and talk to each other for a night or two, saying such things as "did you see that thing? because I sure as hell saw it, and if you did too then it was surely real right? right?!" than they are bound to recover a few points.
2. calming exercises- One method of relaxing in real life is doing something you are comfortable, and enjoy, doing. randomly writing whatever comes to your mind for an hour can really release a lot of stress, or drawing and painting can too, and if the character has some skill with yoga or a martial art, that may help too.
3. Religion- things aren’t so bad when you know God is backing you up, so take a swig of holy water, grab a bible and pray at your local church for guidance against the devil, that way you wont be as loony when he comes out of the ocean and smacks you around with his slimy tentacles.
4. Last resorts- There are a few quick ways to recover from a traumatizing experience, getting really drunk, breaking things, cutting yourself, popping pills, et cetera. Kind of crazy in itself, but if you are really whacked out maybe a little self destruction is good for you in the long run. Getting really drunk is something a lot of people do to relieve stress, mainly because you don't remember what happened the next day! which is also a bad thing, but as long as you aren’t locked up in the asylum things should be ok. Sometimes, like when you are on the dark side of Saturn being hunted by a pack of angry Mi-go, a good smoke will calm you for awhile, just ignore all that crap about cancer, if they even had the warning in 1890 or 1920...
That’s all I can come up with for tonight. What do you think? Got any other ideas?

[zadkiel]

Hello again gang,

I'm not so sure I agree with the idea that everyday "good old emotional grounding" like going to the zoo with a beloved relative, or spending a week "fishing" etc. is really going to put a low SAN Investigator's mind to right. Sure, I WANT to encourage that sort of roleplaying in any campaign I'd run, but SAN is the watchspring of the works so to speak. I feel that SAN regains should have definite links with the Investigators' activites against the Mythos and it's minions and ilk.

SAN regains really should be situationally based within scenarios and exterior rewards such as "You go to the spa in Geneva for a week and seek internal peace--regain 1d3 SAN" cut into the bite of the game.

These are my opinions. Please differ or agree as the whim carries you.

Fred in Milwaukee

[Eero]

CAThompson's idea for regaining sanity is brilliant! So much I thought about it a little more and expanded on it.

RULES FOR REGAINING SANITY
So far in the rule book, a character regains 1D6 san or so for killing a monster or overcoming an evil, as well as the 90% skill rule.
With my limited knowledge of psychology I came up with a few other exercises the characters might do to regain some sanity.

3. Religion- things aren’t so bad when you know God is backing you up, so take a swig of holy water, grab a bible and pray at your local church for guidance against the devil, that way you wont be as loony when he comes out of the ocean and smacks you around with his slimy tentacles.

I really don't share your view on the subject of religion. I too have very limited knowledge of psychology, but I have came to understand that religion many times does the exact opposite. Especially if were talking about monotheistic religions like Islam, Christianity or Judaism. This opinion comes from some reading and personal experiences while working at the Meilahti Gongregation in Finnish capitol Helsinki. Most very religious people I know are really narrow minded and not so emotionally strong. I'm interested what others might think about the subject.

[Innsmouthresident]

Euro wrote:

I really don't share your view on the subject of religion. I too have very limited knowledge of psychology, but I have came to understand that religion many times does the exact opposite. Especially if were talking about monotheistic religions like Islam, Christianity or Judaism. This opinion comes from some reading and personal experiences while working at the Meilahti Gongregation in Finnish capitol Helsinki. Most very religious people I know are really narrow minded and not so emotionally strong. I'm interested what others might think about the subject.

I am actually an atheist and I totally understand what you mean about uptight religeous people, so close minded. I have instead found logic in philosophy rather than theology. I see religion as nothing more than a tool. A tool in which people confide in for help and healing, for false hope and half-truths that answer inanswerable questions. For example, when a loved one dies and one is weak of mind, he may find it better to hear "she is flying around in heaven with god and is all happy and fluffy!" instead of "she is dead and in the earth." Although this is not true, he feels better about the fact of the matter, and can go on in life.
Now I don't know as much as much about the 1920's as I would like to, but I do think the older generations in particular, before the flappers and boot-leggers that is, were really religious. Thus when one, at least from the older generation, sees a creature and it tries to eat him, he may call on his faith to back himself.
Then again, most of the characters who are researching occult tomes or summoning lurkers are not religious in the first place... So I guess it would all depend on the charcter.
Sorry, I find this stuff interesting and could continue this conversation for the rest of my days.

[malcojones]

I'm sympathetic to the GMs who want to slow SAN loss to keep well-developed characters functioning longer in the game, but I'm not seeing the rationale for SAN rewards for hanging out with your family, religious comfort etc for the following reasons:

1/ Aren't these all 'benefits' givens of normal society and therefore incapable of improving sanity? I know SAN is a function of POW, but what keeps it stable before encounters with Mythos knowledge must be basic social interaction and stability based, in Western culture, on a humanist outlook developed from Christian and Classical philosophy (but not at all about being religious, anymore).

2/ families are not necessarily stabilising influences: domestic violence, abuse, feuds, breakdowns, suicides, culture clashes, generational strife (I have a mother daughter 'team' in my Cthulhu playing group that gets quite intense). Further, supportive relationships aren't necessarily sanity inducing once characters know about the Mythos: what's going to happen to my lovely neice in a world where the Mythos is real, AND whats going to happen to her in a plot sense now my character (the centre of this narrative) is being pursued by a psychotic cult of eye-gougers?

3/ Religion, however socially comforting, doesn't hold up as a philosphical breakwater when thought about logically, but in a world where the mythos is real it's clearly nothing but a structured mania. In the real world we might choose to give it a break but religion misused inspires both fundamentalist Christian assassins and Al Qeyda terrorsists.

So, overall, in gameplay, SAN must trend downwards but it has to be carefully apportioned, justified and applied. The better the players are scared the bigger (and fairer) the SAN loss (IMHO). Best, malcojones

[RobStoll]

I really don't share your view on the subject of religion. I too have very limited knowledge of psychology, but I have came to understand that religion many times does the exact opposite. Especially if were talking about monotheistic religions like Islam, Christianity or Judaism. ... Most very religious people I know are really narrow minded and not so emotionally strong.

I see religion as nothing more than a tool. A tool in which people confide in for help and healing, for false hope and half-truths that answer inanswerable questions. For example, when a loved one dies and one is weak of mind, he may find it better to hear "she is flying around in heaven with god and is all happy and fluffy!" instead of "she is dead and in the earth." Although this is not true, he feels better about the fact of the matter, and can go on in life.

Religion, however socially comforting, doesn't hold up as a philosphical breakwater when thought about logically, but in a world where the mythos is real it's clearly nothing but a structured mania. In the real world we might choose to give it a break but religion misused inspires both fundamentalist Christian assassins and Al Qeyda terrorsists.

Wow. I felt I had to respond to this thread, as I'm finding the tone is getting rather disrespectful and offensive. Then again, as a Jew, I've just been characterized as a narrow-minded and emotionally weak subscriber to a structured mania that is merely a tool, so I'll probably be written off anyway. Then again, since we're in the real world, you might choose to give me a break.

Believe it or not, there are many religious people who play Call of Cthulhu (including its creator, Sandy Petersen, who I had some discussions with after I responded to a similar wave of real-world religion bashing on the RuneQuest mailing list a couple of years ago). You can believe what you want, but I humbly ask everyone to be more respectful of other points of view, especially when you tread into such personal territory as religion. This is a great website (big shout-out to PoC), and a great forum, and I really don't like feeling alienated here. I'm not saying don't discuss religion, just to do it in a more respectful manner. Please.

Back on topic: as a Keeper, I would allow certain characters to gain SAN from religion under certain conditions. If any character can gain SAN from psychotherapy, or the confidence that comes from attaining mastery (90%) in a skill, I see no reason why a religious character cannot also gain some SAN from consultation with a priest or rabbi, participating in rituals, prayer, etc. The character must be religious to begin with, and devote some time to his or her faith (no benefit for the Easter-and-Christmas churchgoer, for instance). Priests and the like would definitely be able to get something, perhaps 1d2 points each time they lead a congreational service.

Note that this can cut both ways. If you want the power of the Mythos to supersede real-world religion in your game world, by all means, do it! I do ... the nihilism is necessary for Lovecraftian horror in that EVERYTHING humans belive in (religion, science, humanity's primacy on earth, only three or four existing dimensions, the uselessness of the pineal gland, etc.) is WRONG. Once the religious character realizes the falsity of his or her faith, there should be a crushing SAN loss! In fact, I seem to remember a published scenario (Masks of Nyarlathotep, most likely), in which Nyarlathotep reveals to the PCs that one of his masks was Jesus by mockingly describing the scene at Golgotha. The priest PC would lose much more SAN from hearing The Big N say, "God, why hast thou forsaken me?" than an unbeliever or lay Christian, and would not be able to gain any more SAN benefits from his or her faith. In fact, a priest or rabbi may actually have to risk SAN loss if they try to lead a congregational service or even read the bible or torah after something like that. What other game lets you totally destroy a character's psyche like that?

Anyhow, religion, like sex, is a very personal thing which can be problematic to put into a game. I've personally played several games (at cons, mostly) where one jerk makes an obnoxious crack (one started a religion fight, a couple have made very crude racist remarks, and a few that thought it would be funny if their character went around indiscriminately raping women) that ruins the whole experience for everyone else. This is, after all, a game, and you can't have fun if you're offended.

Robert

"Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Tattulhu Fantasy Island wagh'nagl fhtagn." "In his house at Fantasy Island dead Tattoo waits dreaming." (trans.)

Ia! Ia! Tattulhu fhtagn! The guest stars are right!

[Mithras]

Then again, "Call of Cthulhu" has to be the only true forum left for anti-religious thinking left in roleplaying!

Lovecraft himself would agree:
http://jcolavito.tripod.com/lostcivilizations/id19.html

Isn't it interesting that SAN is based on the POW characteristic - "a measure of of a person's charisma, soul, or will". Magic and Luck also stem from this stat... All the domain of metaphysics & faith, no?

I personally look forward to "The Drums of Chaos" by Richard L. Tierney.

[fafhrd]

There really hasn't been much love lost between the general gaming and religious communities, but before a flame fest erupts can we assume that comments regarding distasteful conduct by one group or another reflect specific persons and not the larger bodies? While I have seen my share of religious zealotry as well as unscrupulous gamers(just visit my local game shop on a Saturday night), I like to believe that people are bascially heterogenous regardless of their associations (excepting perhaps the KKK and the like).

Rather than belabor the point though, I'd like to pose a question regarding RobStoll's last paragraph.

Anyhow, religion, like sex, is a very personal thing which can be problematic to put into a game. I've personally played several games (at cons, mostly) where one jerk makes an obnoxious crack (one started a religion fight, a couple have made very crude racist remarks, and a few that thought it would be funny if their character went around indiscriminately raping women) that ruins the whole experience for everyone else. This is, after all, a game, and you can't have fun if you're offended.

It immediately struck me while reading the comments above that the problem I have with that sort of behavior is that it is poor gaming etiquette, and not so much because it is offensive on its face. Perhaps, I don't offend easily and were I a more religious person, I'd feel differently, but I take a gloves off approach in my games. While my group would likely be offended by a racist remark out of the game, they take it in stride when a 1920s character throws around insensitive racial or religious epithets. I found it odd when I was reading reviews of Masks, that again and again, people were offended by the characterizations of Brittish colonialists. These are gaming supplements, not historical record, and while we'd like some accountability, often it suits our purposes as gamers to make use of generalizations and cliches doesn't it?

A moron playing a shell of a character whose purpose is to offer some base excuse to perpetrate his rape fantasies is just in fact a moron and wise players shy away from that because it reduces the collective experience. However, if used with the same discretion as any other plot device can't rape be a useful convention, adding darkness and consequence to the game? You needn't appreciate profanity, obscenity, murder, torture, rape, and deceit, but allowing for the fact of these things makes the game that much more redolent in my opinion. After all, I'm sure we all understand what a horror the Mythos would be if it were true, but we allow for its fact during play in order to make for the rich experience it can be.

Do you leave your beliefs at the tableside?